Topic: Chronic problem with drive chain slack.

[Ira]

Ira, It's about your chain's tensile strength! What brand and model? Let's do some comparisons. I just bought a Tsubaki Sigma o-ringer for my restore but my "old" one is fine and it will go on my build I'll do with all the take off parts from my restore. IMO that's the more important stat vs o-ring/non o-ring. Two totally different subjects. O-rings keep the insides of a chain cleaner and lubed better at least initially. Has nothing to do with how strong a chain is. What is the tensile strength of your "decent quality" chain? Mine are running above 11,000 lb. I rarely have to adjust my chain now that I've used a high tensile strength chain. (it is o-ring fwiw) That was NOT the case when I couldn't afford a high quality chain which happened on several occasions throughout the last 37 years. I found I had to make adjustments after a week or so. It stretched so bad it didn't last. What a PITA too. Finally broke. What I have yet to mention is that I am was 812 with cam and my right wrist twists it up very regularly which puts more stress on a chain than a stock bike that's not ridden hard. It was rated at 67hp before kitting it. It is now 900 with much more serious stuff inside.

Lucky, in case you didn't get it the kerosene is for cleaning not lubricating. You can just keep it in the garage, you don't need to take it with you. Cleaning and lubing are not required as often for an o-ring chain. Andy knows what he's talking about.

The "stretching" is most likely due to the holes becoming elongated and/or the pins wearing down thus making the distance between the pins larger vs the side plates stretching. I'd sure like for them to explain their pre-stretching. Marketing tool perhaps? Lucky, what's your take on this?

It's an RK standard 530 chain.  A few forum members recommended it as a basic chain.  I don't have a high-performance engine and I'm not riding aggressively.

[Ira]

I mentioned earlier that I'd post a picture of my chain line, due to the question about the '75 engine in a '77 frame.  this is what it looks like:



to my eye, it looks straight.  am I missing something?

[madmtnmotors]

Do your axel adjusters appear even on both sides (i.e. do they align with the same index marks on the swingarm)?

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Ira,

I think you just basically answered your own question.

From Bike Bandit's site:

"All RK chains are made with Japanese steel and meet all Japanese specs, so you get Japanese quality at a lower price point. The 530 RK-M standard chain is suitable for 400cc max street use and has an average tensile strength of 6800 lbs."

That is NOT a strong chain. I am not surprised you are having to continually adjust it. Be careful. As it stretches it becomes weaker. You don't want it snapping on you. An old method to determine when it has out-stretched it's useful life is to lift up a link on the rear sprocket. If you can see the top of a tooth you need to get rid of it.

And, again, don't get caught up in o-ring, non o-ring, x-ring BS. That is NOT relavent to your situation. Save some extra $$$ and look for a HIGH tensile strength chain. You'll be glad you did. In the mean time take it easy on this chain. keep it lubed, keep it adjusted and above all else keep an eye on it until you can replace it. Hope this puts all the "help" to rest.

This is mine

http://www.bikebandit.com/tsubaki-530-sigma-hi-performance-o-ring-motorcycle-chain
 
Tsubaki 530 Sigma Hi-Performance O-Ring Motorcycle Chain

[Ira]

Do your axel adjusters appear even on both sides (i.e. do they align with the same index marks on the swingarm)?

I believe so?  I'll check.  They are very difficult to read for some reason (different marks on each side?), so I've been going by turns of the tensioner bolts.

[Ira]

Jerry- thanks, that makes sense.

[Tugboat]

I'm surprised that you chain lines up as well as it does. If you're using a stock '77 rear wheel with stock sprocket carrier, theoretically it should be 10mm out of alignment. Is your rear wheel & carrier stock?

[bjatwood]

Lets start up a donation fund for this guy to buy a X or O ring chain. I had the same issue with a stock chain last season
Put a X-chain on this spring and haven't had to "play/adjust" it yet!

[madmtnmotors]

I'm surprised that you chain lines up as well as it does. If you're using a stock '77 rear wheel with stock sprocket carrier, theoretically it should be 10mm out of alignment. Is your rear wheel & carrier stock?

That's what I was getting at. The rear wheel could be cocked enough to "appear" to line up with the front sprocket. If this were the case then I would expect a wide discrepancy between the index marks on each side of the swingarm. I think Jerry has it pegged though, 6800 lb ain't much...

[Ira]

I'm surprised that you chain lines up as well as it does. If you're using a stock '77 rear wheel with stock sprocket carrier, theoretically it should be 10mm out of alignment. Is your rear wheel & carrier stock?

as far as i know, yes.  not as confident about the front sprocket- it has definitely been replaced twice, once by a shop and once by me.

[lucky]

I was being facetious Lucky with a touch of sarcasm based on a comment further up in the thread Dont take it so personally.

Use whatever chain works for you. You know my preference.
cheers
Andy

Ok...ok I'll try to calm down.

[HondaMan]

The strength and quality of the chain AND THE SPROCKETS is everything. The RK chains are not strong, nor are they durable, in my experience. I still recommend only the Diamond Powersport series: I adjust mine maybe once every 1000 miles or so.

The current situation is this: the JT and EMGO (and SUNSTAR) sprockets currently available have several fatal flaws. Their surfaces look like fine sand, and the first 500 miles or so of use grind this stuff off and embed it in the new chain, making a real good grinding compound. After that, the sprockets are somewhat better, and the 2nd chain fares a better life.

Here's the poop on the sprockets: they have this surface-finish problem, the teeth are too tall by about 2mm, and they are over-cut in depth. Some of them have non-tapered tooth profiles (square teeth across the width). All of these things cause very rapid chain wear. You can fix a couple of them with some time and patience, like trimming the sprocket teeth, but one thing is important to remember: after the first chain has been damaged by the grit from the new sprockets, it will continue to wear rapidly, can't be stopped. For this reason, I have long recommended that a new pair of sprockets be 'broken in' with the old chain for a couple of hundred miles to collect this crud, then install the new chain (and a good one) after that.

[MCRider]

HM: Could new sprockets then  benefit from a glass beading? Making them smooth, or shot peening?

I had mine cryo'd, we'll see.

[PeWe]

D.I.D std O-ring chain made a huge difference when I started to use that 30 years ago. Before that very bad chains with very short life. One chain lost many of the rollers between the links and it fell together, chain jumped off the rear sprocket while easy driving, not just before in tripple speed and more. I was lucky that it went OK.
If you read the chain manufacturers homepages today they seems to have strong non o-ring chains for the off road market when the o-rings might keep dirt, not only the lubricant.
Check DID. This brand has been very common here during many years. http://www.didchain.com/chainSpecs.html

[shinyribs]

I was thinking about this today while shopping for a new chain: if chains dont actually stretch,then why do they sell pre-stretched chains? Not trying to be a smart aleck here. Honest question.

Not trying to hi-jack your thread bud, just trying to figure it out since we're in the same boat here

I've been around this for a while. And there is a respectable forum member who claims this is legit, (prestretching) so I'll be openminded. But i don't get it either.   

Yeah, it sounded kind of strange when I saw that, I was wondering if it was a marketing ploy myself.

[BobbyR]

I working with an Engineer from a Company that makes Railroad car pantographs. I was looking at a sample and I realized that a part of the lifting mechanism used two lengths of standard non O ring 630 chain. He said they buy it by the roll. It is made buy the same manufacturers in the same sizes and is used for low speed industrial machinery. He says guys at the shop have tried it on bikes and while it will work well at first, it will wear very fast at the speeds a motorcycle chain runs.
I suspect a lot of it finds it;s way into the market

[Ira]

I'm surprised that you chain lines up as well as it does. If you're using a stock '77 rear wheel with stock sprocket carrier, theoretically it should be 10mm out of alignment. Is your rear wheel & carrier stock?

That's what I was getting at. The rear wheel could be cocked enough to "appear" to line up with the front sprocket. If this were the case then I would expect a wide discrepancy between the index marks on each side of the swingarm. I think Jerry has it pegged though, 6800 lb ain't much...

Ok, you may be surprised by this, but the index marks match EXACTLY on each side.  I'm not sure how it worked out, but as the picture I posted shows, my chain line is nearly perfect.


The conclusion, and I think a few of you have nailed it, is that I need a stronger chain.  It's a shame I had to waste $25 on the RK standard to learn this, but I'm ordering a new, sturdier chain to replace it.

[scottly]

I mentioned earlier that I'd post a picture of my chain line, due to the question about the '75 engine in a '77 frame.  this is what it looks like:



to my eye, it looks straight.  am I missing something?

You need to remove the chain to eyeball alignment. Sight down the inside surface, then the outside surface of the rear sprocket to see if it's aligned with the front sprocket. There are offset front sprockets made just for your situation, but they are a bit pricey.

[shinyribs]

When the carriers are wrong shouldn't it at least pull the chain to one side? His seem perfectly centered on the sprocket teeth. I have both early and late sprocket carriers in my shop right now. I can take measurements for you if it would help diagnose which you have.

[scottly]

I doubt that the alignment issue, if any, is responsible for the accelerated chain wear, but it should be addressed, IMHO.   

[seanbarney41]

Ira, was the '75 engine installed in the '77 frame by you? or a previous owner?  Have you checked your frame and engine numbers to confirm exactly what you have?

[HondaMan]

HM: Could new sprockets then  benefit from a glass beading? Making them smooth, or shot peening?

I had mine cryo'd, we'll see.

Shot peening, absolutely. This was a racer's edge in the 1970s with these bikes. When I looked into making the rear sprockets myself (had a few made), one option was the shot peening to case-harden the surface. What I discovered: Honda's method is/was to use dead soft sprockets and rock-hard chain rollers and side plates, which lets the chain mate and shot-peen the tooth surfaces after about 1000 miles. Interesting philosophy, and obviously successful.

I'm real interested in hearing how your cryo'd ones come out, too.

[madmtnmotors]

I'm with scottly on this one, after removing the old chain, verify that the sprockets are aligned before installing the new chain.

[Tugboat]

Of course I had the opposite problem, but here's some interesting reading for you about the offset front sprocket and wider swing arm on the 77/78 bikes. I did a LOT of research into this topic and, as others have noted, you may not have what you think you have motor/frame-wise.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=103649.0

[Ira]

Of course I had the opposite problem, but here's some interesting reading for you about the offset front sprocket and wider swing arm on the 77/78 bikes. I did a LOT of research into this topic and, as others have noted, you may not have what you think you have motor/frame-wise.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=103649.0

Interesting.  My frame is definitely a '77, but the motor could be something else.  The guy I bought it from had also purchased it second hand, after it was removed from a crashed bike.  I'll confirm the number.  I'm pretty sure it's not a 77/78 motor though.  It has the chain oiler and the carb boots are a different size.