Topic: Gear Change Question

[CB500 Four NH]

I recently acquired a 1971 CB500 Four.

My first question:

Is it normal to have to engage the clutch for every gear change? Let me clarify…   If I want to downshift from 4th  to 1st I must engage the clutch, shift into 3rd, release clutch, engage the clutch, shift into 2nd, release clutch, engage the clutch, shift into first, release the clutch.  On other bikes I have ridden you can engage the clutch and shift down or up multiple times before releasing the clutch.  But on this bike it seems that I have to engage the clutch in order to change between each gear.  I have ridden other (newer) motorcycles and dirt bikes and I have never had to do this.  Is this correct or is something wrong? Sorry for the wordy post!

[Dimitri13]

On my 74 550 I can change as many gears as I want.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable about the bike will chime in though.

[CB500 Four NH]

Thanks for the input... I'm hoping it's not supposed to be this way and that it's an easy fix.

[Chachi]

500's are known to occasionally slip or miss, it's a common issue with their transmissions. They modified some things (fixed it) with the release of the 550s. My 72 500 occasionally misses, but with the clutch lever pulled in I can shift however I like. What does yours do if you try to downshift multiple gears?

[LesterPiglet]

It's bad practice to block shift. Shifting from 4th to first will raise your revs well above the redline and damage your engine/ throw you off the bike.
You lose engine braking when block shifting. I have never met anyone who does this.

[CB500 Four NH]

It's bad practice to block shift. Shifting from 4th to first will raise your revs well above the redline and damage your engine/ throw you off the bike.
You lose engine braking when block shifting. I have never met anyone who does this.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying.  I don't mean to say that I'm downshifting to 4th from 1st while crusing, but rather when coming to a stop.  I guess my real question (phrased differently) was: How many times must the clutch be engaged to shift from 4th to 1st. In my previous experience, once the clutch is engaged you can shift freely between gears.  I'm aware that what you're describing would be bad for both the bike and the rider.

[CB500 Four NH]

500's are known to occasionally slip or miss, it's a common issue with their transmissions. They modified some things (fixed it) with the release of the 550s. My 72 500 occasionally misses, but with the clutch lever pulled in I can shift however I like. What does yours do if you try to downshift multiple gears?

Hmmm... so maybe it just always "misses." If i try to shift multiple gears it does nothing.  The shift lever will move but the bike will not change more than one gear per clutch engagement.   

[Ausmithe]

I have 2 500s and one shifts easier than the other, but they both allow multiple shifts while the clutch is disengaged. So you should be able to drop from 4th down to 1st while slowing to a stop, as you were asking. On the bike that seems to have a bit more trouble with shifts it's more of being too touchy getting into neutral, which is not a problem at all if the bike is moving a bit. If you're unable to click through your gears with the clutch engaged, then somethings not right.

[CB500 Four NH]

I have 2 500s and one shifts easier than the other, but they both allow multiple shifts while the clutch is disengaged. So you should be able to drop from 4th down to 1st while slowing to a stop, as you were asking. On the bike that seems to have a bit more trouble with shifts it's more of being too touchy getting into neutral, which is not a problem at all if the bike is moving a bit. If you're unable to click through your gears with the clutch engaged, then somethings not right.

I'm glad that it's not supposed to be doing this and I'm bummed because it means something is wrong....  Now to just figure out whats wrong! 

Anyone have any ideas?

[cougar]

Hey CB500 ; Have you changed your oil since you got it ? Fresh oil of the proper vis. can do wonders. Just a thought.   ...cougar...

[dave500]

you can shift like that if you have to like coming to a sudden stop for some sort of emergency,i dont like doing it if i dont have to and dont practise it,the bike should be able to handle it,i like to blip the throttle to increase rpm on down shifts,try that it might help easier shifting,along with the already mentioned fresh oil,if  you feel the selection not going through you should release(disengage) the clutch and let it slip in,,is it american terminology,or what?,if i pull in the clutch lever,my clutch is disengaged or released,,if i "let my clutch lever out"i am in fact engageing my clutch,,when you pull in your clutch lever you are in fact dis engageing your clutch,,it is released.

[CB500 Four NH]

Hey CB500 ; Have you changed your oil since you got it ? Fresh oil of the proper vis. can do wonders. Just a thought.   ...cougar...

The previous owner had changed it right before I got it, or so he says.  I topped it off  but maybe Ill change it this weekend to see if that helps. 

[CB500 Four NH]

you can shift like that if you have to like coming to a sudden stop for some sort of emergency,i dont like doing it if i dont have to and dont practise it,the bike should be able to handle it,i like to blip the throttle to increase rpm on down shifts,try that it might help easier shifting,along with the already mentioned fresh oil,if  you feel the selection not going through you should release(disengage) the clutch and let it slip in,,is it american terminology,or what?,if i pull in the clutch lever,my clutch is disengaged or released,,if i "let my clutch lever out"i am in fact engageing my clutch,,when you pull in your clutch lever you are in fact dis engageing your clutch,,it is released.

Right that would be a great example of when I would need to shift multiple gears.  And I do blip the throttle on downshifts, which helps with smoother gear changes.

I did use the wrong terminology there... engaged would be when the level is released, you are correct.

Ill update if I can figure anything out... 

[lucky]

you can shift like that if you have to like coming to a sudden stop for some sort of emergency,i dont like doing it if i dont have to and dont practise it,the bike should be able to handle it,i like to blip the throttle to increase rpm on down shifts,try that it might help easier shifting,along with the already mentioned fresh oil,if  you feel the selection not going through you should release(disengage) the clutch and let it slip in,,is it american terminology,or what?,if i pull in the clutch lever,my clutch is disengaged or released,,if i "let my clutch lever out"i am in fact engageing my clutch,,when you pull in your clutch lever you are in fact dis engageing your clutch,,it is released.

Right that would be a great example of when I would need to shift multiple gears.  And I do blip the throttle on downshifts, which helps with smoother gear changes.

I did use the wrong terminology there... engaged would be when the level is released, you are correct.

Ill update if I can figure anything out...

CB500 FOUR NH got it right!!!

Multiple downshifts from 4th to first needs to have the throttle blipped between gears to get the shifting dogs up to speed to work smoothly.
A motorcycle trans does not have syncros.
Shifting from 4th to first without any throttle is asking for damage to the transmission.
You may get away with it for a while but it will eventually break a shifting dog.

[cabrala]

Alright NH, I'm going to try to get this straightened out because (to me) it seems that Lucky and Cycle are mistaken on what you've asked. Both statements have their merits but are not directly answering your original post.

You're talking about cruising in 4th gear with a stop light turned red 75 yards ahead. You shift down and engage 3rd gear, beginning to slow the bike. You then shift into 2nd to further slow your roll. More than likely you will coast to a stop at this point instead of using 1st to slow down.

^That's what I got from your question, but maybe I am the one that's not getting. I sure wouldn't put it past myself

My question to you is if you stop at said light still in 4th gear, can you disengage (pull in) the clutch and press down to 1st without engaging clutch at each gear? I'm trying to determine if this is an issue while the bike is in motion (in my mind, "under load") or if it is your transmission all together.

-Alex

[cabrala]

I recently acquired a 1971 CB500 Four.

My first question:

Is it normal to have to engage the clutch for every gear change? Let me clarify…   If I want to downshift from 4th  to 1st I must engage the clutch, shift into 3rd, release clutch, engage the clutch, shift into 2nd, release clutch, engage the clutch, shift into first, release the clutch.  On other bikes I have ridden you can engage the clutch and shift down or up multiple times before releasing the clutch.  But on this bike it seems that I have to engage the clutch in order to change between each gear.  I have ridden other (newer) motorcycles and dirt bikes and I have never had to do this.  Is this correct or is something wrong? Sorry for the wordy post!

BTW, post was not wordy by any means. Search around and you'll find the real violators! I thought it was nicely said and pretty to-the-point.

[LoVel]

To answer the original question.  My bike will shift down more than one gear while the clutch is pulled in.  I think something is wrong with yours.

[cabrala]

To answer the original question.  My bike will shift down more than one gear while the clutch is pulled in.  I think something is wrong with yours.

My 550 does the same. If the clutch is disengaged, I can float through the gears like a butterfly. Now there are obviously changes/improvements between the 500 and 550, but I'd imagine yours should do the same. Lovel vouches for that as he is a 500 guy.

I'll pose another question: When downshifting, does it feel like you are hitting a "stop" at each gear? Forcing you to engage and then disengage at every one?

[CB500 Four NH]

Alright NH, I'm going to try to get this straightened out because (to me) it seems that Lucky and Cycle are mistaken on what you've asked. Both statements have their merits but are not directly answering your original post.

You're talking about cruising in 4th gear with a stop light turned red 75 yards ahead. You shift down and engage 3rd gear, beginning to slow the bike. You then shift into 2nd to further slow your roll. More than likely you will coast to a stop at this point instead of using 1st to slow down.

^That's what I got from your question, but maybe I am the one that's not getting. I sure wouldn't put it past myself

My question to you is if you stop at said light still in 4th gear, can you disengage (pull in) the clutch and press down to 1st without engaging clutch at each gear? I'm trying to determine if this is an issue while the bike is in motion (in my mind, "under load") or if it is your transmission all together.

-Alex

If I find myself stopped and still in fourth gear, I can not shift to 1st by disengaging the clutch once.  I have to do what you described above, which is to downshift each gear individually as I approach a stop.

My 550 does the same. If the clutch is disengaged, I can float through the gears like a butterfly. Now there are obviously changes/improvements between the 500 and 550, but I'd imagine yours should do the same. Lovel vouches for that as he is a 500 guy.

I'll pose another question: When downshifting, does it feel like you are hitting a "stop" at each gear? Forcing you to engage and then disengage at every one?

I'm not sure if I am interpreting this correctly, but I believe I feel a "stop" at each gear.  I must engage and then disengage at every one.

I wonder what the heck is wrong here!?   

[CB500 Four NH]

Thanks to all. This seems like pretty helpful community!   

[CB500 Four NH]

To answer the original question.  My bike will shift down more than one gear while the clutch is pulled in.  I think something is wrong with yours.

Clear and concise! Thanks 

[cabrala]

I'm not sure if I am interpreting this correctly, but I believe I feel a "stop" at each gear.  I must engage and then disengage at every one.

I wonder what the heck is wrong here!?   

My technical vocabulary is still developing, so forgive me . The "stop" I am referencing is in relation to what you feel when trying a continuous downshift through multiple gears. Does the shifter get stuck, or stop, at each gear? I imagine it to be as if you could kick the sh*t out of the lever and it wouldn't budge into the next lowest gear (I do not advise trying this!).

Ultimately I agree that there is something wrong, but I wish I had the know-how to really give you a quality solution. Two Tired (member here) among a few others are extremely knowledgable on the 500 and 550. I hope they chime in for you. I'll be here too for support! 

[Fritz]

My bike's a 550 which has a completely differnt clutch than the 500. I never experienced a problem like yours, so this is just a theory about what could be wrong with your transmission:

You know that you can shift completely without the clutch?
This is easy when you are shifting up. Just close the throttle a little bit so that you are decreasing the load on the input shaft and you'll be able to shift up without pulling the clutch.

On the other hand this means: If there's too much load on the input shaft, you will not be able to shift at all, because the dogs of the sliding gear are pressed against the side walls of the corresponding gear's slots very strongly. This is why you normally need to pull the clutch while shifting down: It takes the load off of the input shaft.
Now, if you are unable to shift down several gears while pulling the clutch, it looks like there's still too much load on the dogs. Or the sliding gear is binding on the shaft somehow (twisting because of worn bearing journals?).
While downshifting, the input shaft needs to acceralerate. Disengaging the clutch and blipping the throttle while shifting helps a little bit.
Might be that your input shaft is slowed down too much while engaging the clutch, so that there's too much load on the gears to shift down more than one gear.
As I wrote before, I have no experience with the 500.

But looking at the fiches, it looks like the clutch lifter rod turns with the speed of the input shaft and this rotating force is transferred to the clutch lifter cam through a steel ball. If this rod or steel ball binds too much, it might slow down the input shaft just enough to make shifting down several gears impossible.
So you could try to disassemble the lifter mechanism in the left engine cover, clean and lube it thoroughly.
Investigating the clutch lifter rod and the clutch itself might reveal more problems.
If you don't find anything wrong with your clutch, you might consider to dig into the transmission in order to inspect the gears and shafts or just live with it

Cheers
Carsten

[CB500 Four NH]

I'm not sure if I am interpreting this correctly, but I believe I feel a "stop" at each gear.  I must engage and then disengage at every one.

I wonder what the heck is wrong here!?   

My technical vocabulary is still developing, so forgive me . The "stop" I am referencing is in relation to what you feel when trying a continuous downshift through multiple gears. Does the shifter get stuck, or stop, at each gear? I imagine it to be as if you could kick the sh*t out of the lever and it wouldn't budge into the next lowest gear (I do not advise trying this!).

Ultimately I agree that there is something wrong, but I wish I had the know-how to really give you a quality solution. Two Tired (member here) among a few others are extremely knowledgable on the 500 and 550. I hope they chime in for you. I'll be here too for support! 

The first shift clicks right into place and then when I try  a second shift it feels like it's just about to click into gear but doesn't.  It only goes so far and then nothing....   

[CB500 Four NH]

My bike's a 550 which has a completely differnt clutch than the 500. I never experienced a problem like yours, so this is just a theory about what could be wrong with your transmission:

You know that you can shift completely without the clutch?
This is easy when you are shifting up. Just close the throttle a little bit so that you are decreasing the load on the input shaft and you'll be able to shift up without pulling the clutch.

On the other hand this means: If there's too much load on the input shaft, you will not be able to shift at all, because the dogs of the sliding gear are pressed against the side walls of the corresponding gear's slots very strongly. This is why you normally need to pull the clutch while shifting down: It takes the load off of the input shaft.
Now, if you are unable to shift down several gears while pulling the clutch, it looks like there's still too much load on the dogs. Or the sliding gear is binding on the shaft somehow (twisting because of worn bearing journals?).
While downshifting, the input shaft needs to acceralerate. Disengaging the clutch and blipping the throttle while shifting helps a little bit.
Might be that your input shaft is slowed down too much while engaging the clutch, so that there's too much load on the gears to shift down more than one gear.
As I wrote before, I have no experience with the 500.

But looking at the fiches, it looks like the clutch lifter rod turns with the speed of the input shaft and this rotating force is transferred to the clutch lifter cam through a steel ball. If this rod or steel ball binds too much, it might slow down the input shaft just enough to make shifting down several gears impossible.
So you could try to disassemble the lifter mechanism in the left engine cover, clean and lube it thoroughly.
Investigating the clutch lifter rod and the clutch itself might reveal more problems.
If you don't find anything wrong with your clutch, you might consider to dig into the transmission in order to inspect the gears and shafts or just live with it

Cheers
Carsten

Wow, now that is some technical knowledge! Thanks  I did know that you can shift without the clutch but I had no idea about what was really happening "in there." I'm sure once I get into it and start opening things up, more of what you said will make sense to me.

Or like you said just live with it since it doesn't make riding any less fun.   

[dave500]

everyones no clutch shifted dirt bikes for years,whats the big deal?only on the upshift though,the down shifts can be too hard on the dogs so its avoided by me at least.

[Retro Rocket]

everyones no clutch shifted dirt bikes for years,whats the big deal?only on the upshift though,the down shifts can be too hard on the dogs so its avoided by me at least.

I agree, i had a GSX750esd that i used to change a lot without the clutch, it had a beautifully smooth gearbox, on my way to work one morning i down shifted without the clutch, no noise, no grinding, no nothing, not even 3rd gear, from then on i had a 4 speed 750...
{until i swapped it for an IT495 dirt bike}  Don't down shift ever without the clutch.... And yes, i do blip the throttle on down shifts...sometimes on up shifs as well 

[dave500]

dirt bike bush bashing/fire trail riding and not so much motorcrossing a dirt bike rear wheel is always breaking traction one way or another,tarmac or sealed pavements dont have that give that dirt/clay/mud/loose shale,quartz does,i never no clutch on road bikes its too harsh and solid.

[LesterPiglet]

I lost 3rd gear upshifting without the clutch.  I was in race mode though. 

[dave500]

yeah dont do it on tarmac,dirt bikes just spin the rear wheel all the the time anyway and are already spinning when you do up shift,different kettle of fish!

[NewOldSchool]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned how important proper drive chain tension is in relation to shifting. If the chain is very lose the gears will get really clunky and miss shifts, false neutrals, etc.

[bollingball]

yeah dont do it on tarmac,dirt bikes just spin the rear wheel all the the time anyway and are already spinning when you do up shift,different kettle of fish!

em fish stew.