Author Topic: Given a Gold wing  (Read 24511 times)

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Offline Peterbylt

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2012, 11:35:50 AM »
My 81 1100 also has two Spark Units and no resister. I believe the difference being that the 81 Spark Units have the ballast resister built into them and the 82, 83 had the resister external.
You said that only two of the cylinders were firing, Depending on which ones, could tell you what the issue is. Like the SOHC4’s the wing uses the wasted spark ignition and fires 1-2 and 3-4 cylinders at the same time. So if one of the Spark Units or coils is not firing you will lose two of the cylinders. Cylinders 1 and 2 fire from the right coil and 3 and 4 fire from the left coil. Cylinders 1 and 3 are on the right side of the bike and 2 and 4 are on the left.
When you are cleaning the carbs a common issue is to have the idle jet clogged, the problem with that is the idle jets on the 80-81 are pressed in and have a very small opening. I ended up having to use a screw to bite into the very end of the jet before the metered hole and pull it out with vise grips to clean it, not the best of solutions but it did work. I also ended up boiling the throttle bodies for 30 minutes before they actually worked right, but mine were extreme having sat for 9 years with gas in them. Your bike already ran so they should be easy enough to clean.
There is an excellent  tutorial on cleaning 1100 carbs here :
http://filipi.com/ngw/roady/Carb_Overhaul_GL1100.pdf

Peter       
1975 550F SuperSport
1975 GL1000 Goldwing
1979 CM400A Hondamatic
1981 GL1100 Goldwing
1985 CMX250C Rebel

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2012, 06:31:04 PM »
Congrats TT., the GL 1100 is the best of the old Wings IMO ( after lots of research ).... One small 'tip', a habit of always turning off the gas is a good idea as a fullish gas tank can gravity feed the carb bowls( thru' the pump ), no problem until one day one of the floats/valves stick and the combustion chamber ( below the level of the carb bowls ) fills with gas and hydraulic locks when you hit the start button  :o = bent parts !
The carb bowls do not have any overflow standpipes, hence above scenario  :)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline MoMo

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2012, 06:41:31 PM »
TT,  I have two sets of Emgo rear brake pads if you need rear brakes.  Yours for the shipping cost...Larry

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2012, 10:06:43 PM »
Rebuilding the rear brake system is on the list of to-dos.  Once I got it up on C stand, I found the rear wheel VERY hard to turn due to brake drag.  No wonder the thing is so hard to push around.  I was afraid it was really THAT much heavier than the SOHC4s.

I ordered Randakk's master carb rebuild kit today.  I think the carbs currently have original rubber bits, which is hard, or being dissolved by ethanol.   Same gooey stuff as what happened to my lawnmower carbs.  The new kits use Viton, which is ethanol tolerant.

Those that said to replace the cut off valves were right, I looked at two of them ad they either had cracks or a gooey rubber section.  All the metal carb bits looks pretty good, for a good long life to be.  Very little corrosion, a little bit of verdigris on the two stuck float valves, and gum deposits you'd expect from ethanol gas sitting for at least 2 years.
The rubber tipped float valves must have been Viton, they still are nice and resilient.

Thanks for the carb overhaul pdf pointer.  Nice to know what circuits have to work so as to prove them clear while cleaning.

Thinking about soaking the carb couplers in wintergreen oil.  They are pretty hard.  Gonna have to heat them to get them off the carbs. 

I mostly took a break from working on the bike today.  Studied the Shop manual, and searched for some new or replacement spark units.  Would have bid on ones from ebay.  But, I don't have a paypal account.  David Silver wants $120 each for them.

I need a fast way the renew the aluminum carb tops and inlet runners.  I'm thinking a scotchbrite wheel might do it.  I wonder if there is clear coat on them to strip off first.  Perhaps gold paint?  ;)

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2012, 09:36:41 AM »
The runners on my 1000 had a factory clear coat on them and I would guess that they 1100's do also.
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Offline 6adan

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2012, 07:31:33 PM »
I thank the spark units from the DOHC fours will work on your GL. I also have a 81 GL like yours that I like very much. You may have gotten yourself in trouble by getting this bike,I started with one 79 GL1000 now I also have finished a 75 and have another 75 and a76 LTD to get running.
1970 CB750 JDM,1975 GL1000, 1979 GL1000, 1979 CBX, 1995 GL1500, 2000 GL1500CT Valkyrie, 2008 GL1800 Trike.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2012, 11:10:43 PM »
Cripes, I'm STILL working the carbs.  Can't take the freakin' pilot jet out, and the channels are plugged solid.  I've done half of the carbs now, nearly done with the 3rd, and just about out of carb cleaner.  These are far more complicated and difficult to service than any of the SOHC4 carbs, imo.  I'm not much interested in doing them more than once.  I'll hurt my pride.   ;D

I've done quite a lot of cleaning the bike.  Fixed the rear air pressure monitor (corroded wire/connector).  But, their is a lot of bike there and it just may be the first time it's been detail cleaned since new.  Steel wool does a nice job of it.  But, I'm out of #0000.   Need a supplies run.

Since it ran when parked, I'm assuming the spark units still work.  I see that later spark units have external resistors.  And, I've read some reports that the early ones melted cause the resistors were internal, heated up, and melted the potting compound.  Further, the potting compound blend simply wasn't too stable over time and a little bit of heat helped it flow faster.   We'll see.  I've seen spark units available on ebay, for way cheaper than David Silver's $120 each.

I dunked the carb couplers in wintergreen oil and heated it.  The rubber got soft and swelled a bit more than I would have liked.  They are slowly shrinking back, I think. They appear to be molded to the runners, so I'm not sure what replacement options there are.  But, I don't think I need to go that route.

Itchin' to move on to the fairing and electricals (the easy stuff).  Must restrain myself.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2012, 01:53:54 AM »
Lloyd, congrats on the nice price GW. I think I might like a naked goldwing one day...
Hang in there with the carbs, everything Ive read on them is they are a pain but once you've learned their secrets they aren't harder than a set of CV kiehlns

With the CV carbs on the CX500 they benefit from some time in the ultrasonic cleaner before you pull the press-in emulsion tubes; I'm betting the goldwing carbs would hurt from similar treatment. Just don't use a cheap low quality easy out to extract the idle jets. A Snap-on or MacTools would be the way to go.

Good luck!
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 09:50:09 AM »
SOHC4 carbs are easy, even if they do have press in pilot jets.

Look what Keihin did to the GL1100 carbs.  I don't see a way to remove idle jets without destroying them.
I have the jet itself clear, but there is something behind it blocking fluid passage.  I suppose I'm going to have to make some sort of hydraulic device to get reverse force on them

Anybody know if these have emulsion tubes behind them?  I've been hoping no, but suspecting yes.  I'll have to shop for replacements.
Gawd, I hate one way assemblies that never plan for repair.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 12:49:16 PM »
Lloyd, the CV carbs in the CX500 are similar. In fact it looks very similar to the CV carbs in my 78 CX-500.  Larry on the CX & GL forums has developed a carb how to for those carbs. While many disagree on his method the results speak fo themselves; the carbs he does or others who follow his book's advise see carbs that run like new and restore performance and improve idle etc. He uses drill bits #ed sized to the passages and that following a good ultrasonic cleaning provide the results.
The emulsion tubes and idle jets are combined and a pressed in design like what you have. A good quality easy out used with a tap handle is what he recommends. Don't use a Craftsman or Home Depot or similar easy out, they aren't good quality and will break. You drive it in to get a good purchase they slowly pull them as you reverse the direction. It is nerve racking to do. Once they are out you can properly ultrasonically clean the tiny passage ways and the jets. It isn't uncommon to find the emulsion circuits partially or completely clogged with white calcium like build up. They are better after ultrasonic cleaning but you run the numbered drill through them in a pin vise and you get deposits in the flutes (not brass).
Larry could extract them and clean them for you if you would want for a small fee. He is reasonable and excellent with the CX and GL bikes. I can give you his email in a PM. He has a carb guide online but sells a more detailed carb book for 30. I'll send you a link to it; my tablet doesn't let me copy and paste.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 02:46:25 PM »
Mr.TT, did the tool post grinder ever worked for you?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2012, 06:25:59 PM »
The pilot/idle jets are out.

I found a thread (and read several others on the internet) about removing them.  I tried an extractor wood screw as noted in one of the threads.  All I got was chunks of brass breaking out of the jet.  I didn't have a proper screw extractor on hand small enough to fit the hole.  But, discovered a 4-40 tap would thread into the lower part of the tube without touching the orifice deeper within.  After the threads were in place, a 4-40 cap screw was tightened into the jet and a pry bar used to break the jet free of it's shellac'd in bond to the carb body.

Kinda makes sense.  if you can't grab the outside of the jet, grab the inside!

I can't imagine the thread grooves would hinder any sort of flow through a #35 orifice (.0135 in.).  But, I'll admit that carbs haven't yet gone back on the bike.  If it ever needs to be done again, they'll be far easier to get out.
Glad I did it too, as they were plugged up solid, and none too clean at the emulsion tube end.

Almost ready to put them back on the bike.  Hearing it run well should be inspirational.

Cheers,
Lloyd

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2012, 06:40:28 PM »
Mr.TT, did the tool post grinder ever worked for you?

Sorta.  It made me realize the cheap Smithy saddle, racks on the ways depending upon direction of travel.  And the grinder wheel didn't leave a very nice finish on the shaft.  Fortunately it didn't need to be a bearing surface, just fit into the bearing's inner race holder.  The air pump does work and has been for about a month now, but I ain't exactly proud of it.  It best stays in the closet.

I still suck as a machinist, I think.  But, I also think the tool quality is making my education and skill improvement far more painful than it should be.
Probably, the Smithy need a rework for a quality improvement.  Wish I knew how to do that.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2012, 05:10:30 AM »
Glad it worked somewhat :)

Tool quality certainly makes a difference. I got me old Logan but I wish I spent the money and bought a new grizzly or similar small lathe.
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Offline 78 k550

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2012, 06:13:19 PM »
SOHC4 carbs are easy, even if they do have press in pilot jets.

Look what Keihin did to the GL1100 carbs.  I don't see a way to remove idle jets without destroying them.
I have the jet itself clear, but there is something behind it blocking fluid passage.  I suppose I'm going to have to make some sort of hydraulic device to get reverse force on them

Anybody know if these have emulsion tubes behind them?  I've been hoping no, but suspecting yes.  I'll have to shop for replacements.
Gawd, I hate one way assemblies that never plan for repair.

A syringe works good to force fluid through small passages.

Paul
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:15:31 PM by 78 k550 »
Paul
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Offline scottly

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2012, 02:15:49 PM »

Probably, the Smithy need a rework for a quality improvement.  Wish I knew how to do that.

Cheers,
You need to adjust the gibs; the procedure should be covered in the manual, possibly in the set-up section. If you don't have a manual, you should be able to find the info on the manufacturer's web-site.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2012, 12:43:29 AM »
Well, the carbs are all ready to go back on the bike.  But, I can't bring myself to do that with the carb tops and intake runners all looking so corroded and unpolished.  There seems to be no fast way to do that.  It's taking hours (days) to polish them up.  Testing my patience.  Harrumph!

The mind certainly wandered during the carb rebuild.  I got to thinking about what a fair price to perform the rebuild for someone other than myself.  Even though I could most likely do the next one faster, they are still a major pain in the ___.  I can't see doing the job for under $1000. (not that I'd pay that, but it would be fair for the work involved.

Anyway, it was clear that at least one other person was inside these carbs, probably more.  And they weren't very careful about getting the linkage set up and aligned properly.  Extra parts, missing parts.  Maybe I'm too picky, but that sort of stuff irks me and I have to get it all working as it should.  Takes time.

I'm thinking engine restart should happen Sunday, barring distractions.  It's leaving a oil  spot on the garage floor.  I know it had a starter gear replaced inside the cases.  I wonder if I'm going to have to take the engine apart to renew all the gaskets.  Maybe I'll be lucky and it's just the valve cover gaskets?

Must sleep.....

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 05:24:36 PM »
I think that the few guys that Randakk recommends all charge in the $500 range, but that wouldn't include polishing the barrels. After doing it myself and spending a year unsuccessfully trying to dial them it, that seems quite reasonable.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 05:38:34 PM »
Flap wheel sanding discs can speed things up in the sanding portion of the work on the domes and bowls if you can find them in the proper fine grit. But it still leaves lots of crannies that have to be reached with dremel or by hand.
 My CVs had some kinda of hard clear coat that was very tough to remove. It caused splotch stains on the domes where the clear had failed.. Once it was stripped it was'too hard to polish and buff them to a high luster.

The carb bodies look nice when glass beaded but you'll wanna ultrasonically clean them again after a good rinse.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2012, 06:17:08 PM »
I think that the few guys that Randakk recommends all charge in the $500 range, but that wouldn't include polishing the barrels. After doing it myself and spending a year unsuccessfully trying to dial them it, that seems quite reasonable.

I expect that would be labor only, right?  The gasket/seal kit adds another $210.  Wouldn't include removing installing carb on the bike either, I expect.

I do like the Randakk gasket set, in Viton, no less, to deal with the frickin ethanol in the gas.  Rubber seals were either hard as a rock, and the rubber in the cutoff diaphragms were gooey, and dissolved, just like the rubber parts in the lawnmower carbs.  You could see light through the remaining membrane.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2012, 07:13:52 PM »
Flap wheel sanding discs can speed things up in the sanding portion of the work on the domes and bowls if you can find them in the proper fine grit. But it still leaves lots of crannies that have to be reached with dremel or by hand.
 My CVs had some kinda of hard clear coat that was very tough to remove. It caused splotch stains on the domes where the clear had failed.. Once it was stripped it was'too hard to polish and buff them to a high luster.

The carb bodies look nice when glass beaded but you'll wanna ultrasonically clean them again after a good rinse.

The carb bodies proper, cleaned up nicely with wire brush, carb cleaner, and Scotchbrite.  They were grungy, but not corroded.  Probably something to do with California's arid climate.

Clear coat had failed everywhere on the bike including the carb runners.  I didn't notice any clear coat on the carb vacuum tops.

I don't want to use anything on the aluminum more aggressive than 400, perhaps 320.  The scratches get too deep and it takes longer to polish them out.  I went looking for 1 inch sanding belts in 400 grit, but there are none locally, that I can find.  Seem odd they wouldn't be somewhere in silicon valley.  Home Depot, Lowes, Orchard...nada.   I think I might just mail order them.  But, I may finish polishing before they arrive!  ;D
Flap wheels I've tried before on front fork lowers (in 320 grit).  I thought the scratches took too long to remove later on.

Today I made a dual buffer out of an old Black and decker 5 " bench grinder.  The grinder was an early lesson about the true value of cheap, and I haven't used it in 25 years, and it had the dust and patina to prove it.  The project turned out to be much more of an ordeal than I expected.
The wheel shaft arbors were 1/2 inch, and of course all the buffing wheels available use 5/8 arbors and are 6" (AND, too big to fit within the 5" guard)  I made 1/2" to 5/8" adapters on my lathe.  But, not before the lathe quit with a rather nasty burnt electrical smell.  A splice connector box on top of the motor was the culprit.  Inside were eight wire connections and screws used to clamp to the wires.  Only the builder failed to tighten any of the screws.  Conduction was by incidental contact.  And as the metals oxidized of the years resistance and heat developed, melting the connector block and making contact worse.  Eventually burning wiring insulation and separating the conductors.  I imagine its easy to replace the connector block in China.  But the prospect of finding one here seemed so remote and time consuming that I just rebuilt the connector block with a pyro pen and screwdriver blade to push the plastic back into workable position.  And then rebuilt the screw connector with new screws as the originals were melted.  The Smithy again works good as new, which isn't saying much, really. (Another "cheap " tool where I got what I paid for, even though it was a good sum of money outlay.)

Anyway, back top the grinder/buffer.  I broke off the wheel guards from the main casting and did some smoothing of the remaining cheap pot metal.  I also made a wood mount so I can use the buffer in my bench vise at a comfortable level.

I did get some polishing done before my back knotted up too bad to continue.  But, it was a pretty full day. 
I'm going to have to work on the Camaro next.  The temp gauge stopped indicating.

Here are the Carb tops with one starting to be polished and the other not.  Maybe you can guess which was started?
This was only after the Scotchbite rub down and a little buffing on the wheel in the drill.
You can also see what general carb assembly condition was when I started.

Next is what the carb look like today.  Still more polishing to be done.

Finally, my buffer project in fruition.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline KB02

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2012, 05:26:34 AM »
I have a similar waste-of-money bench grinder from Black & Decker. Which is odd, as they normally produce decent products. It was absolutely useless as a grinder and I did the same as you and turned it into a buffer. Problem was, it was absolutely useless as a buffer, too. I got a grinder as a Christmas gift and just bought a buffer.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2012, 09:17:58 AM »
TT,

Now don't take this wrong my very experienced friend. I'm LMAO that you/TT are/is going through the same trials and tribulations that all us other mere mortals endure AND you writing and asking about it.  ;D I'm expecting a list of what's wrong with that model when you are done too  ;) You know, one of the infamous TT CriTTiques  :)

Most of all I am anxious to see and hear about the finished product. I know it'll be great (but only if you put a Corbin on it). Glad you have a new project. Keep up the hard work and keep us informed.

Did I hear CAMARO?! Do tell details as far as year/model/engine etc. 67-72 Z or SS would be REAL nice.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2012, 09:42:40 AM »
I have a similar waste-of-money bench grinder from Black & Decker. Which is odd, as they normally produce decent products. It was absolutely useless as a grinder and I did the same as you and turned it into a buffer. Problem was, it was absolutely useless as a buffer, too.
I fear the B&D may fail as a buffer.  It certainly spins the wheels faster than when chucked in my drill.  But, there is no power to maintain speed when loaded.  I'm working on the assumption that speed is more important than heavy friction.  I'll find out later today. 

I just remembered.  I have a big appliance motor 1/3 or 1/2 HP and I bought the arbor and pulleys to make up an 8" buffer.  Wonder where I put that stuff.   ::)

 ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Given a Gold wing
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2012, 10:16:31 AM »
Now don't take this wrong my very experienced friend. I'm LMAO that you/TT are/is going through the same trials and tribulations that all us other mere mortals endure AND you writing and asking about it.  ;D I'm expecting a list of what's wrong with that model when you are done too  ;) You know, one of the infamous TT CriTTiques  :)

Much if not most of what's wrong with my GW was not caused Honda engineers.  The pilot jet situation was EPA influence to keep owners from tampering with carburetion (easily changing jet sizes) and reverting back to pollution makers.  Another instance of trying to make it fool proof.  Just like the "limiter caps" put on the mixture screws.  You know, "technically" it is illegal for a mechanic to remove those?  (all four of mine are missing, btw   ;D  )

Most of all I am anxious to see and hear about the finished product. I know it'll be great (but only if you put a Corbin on it).
The difference between Honda and Corbin is that Honda has competent engineers, and very few if any prima donnas, that can't think beyond what it looks like rather than how it should or must work.
My GW has a Travelcade seat on it.  ;D ;D  You know, it has a three position fore and aft adjustment?  The whole seat moves.

Did I hear CAMARO?! Do tell details as far as year/model/engine etc. 67-72 Z or SS would be REAL nice.
It's an 89 IROC I bought new in late '88, Metallic red. 
L98    Ohv V8    240hp @ 4400    345 ft lb@ 3200    TPI    9.0:1    350/5.7    IZ (auto only)
It's pretty fast.  I recall a magazine report where they compared it to a Corvette (same drive train).  On the skid pad the Corvette did 0.9 Gs.  The IROC did 0.89 Gs and cost $20K less than the Corvette.
Danged fun car to drive.  Half the engineering team was made up of economists, though.  There are many good bits mixed in with some "WTF were they thinking" bits.

I almost sold it Friday.  But, the guy wanted me to give him the car so he could "restore" it.  It only has 34K miles on it.  (Motorcycles are better in commute traffic) Paint is awful.  Runs and works good, smile on your face good.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 03:45:50 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.