Author Topic: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.  (Read 4692 times)

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Offline Scott S

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Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« on: August 05, 2012, 12:19:11 PM »
 Bike is a mongrel, "sweep the floor" bike. Wiring harness is from a CB550F, controls are from a CB500 and the alternator windings are from both.....help me with proper terms here: Outer winding with three yellow wires is from a CB550 (to match the plug on the harness) and the inner winding with green and white wires is from the CB500. New battery.

 Confused yet?

 Anyway, the bike only charges to 12.4-12.8 volts when RPM's are at 3-4K. I've checked EVERYTHING.

 - Regulator ohms out at 5.5 ohms (minus the reading from my meter, so ~5.3 ohms).
 - Three yellow wires all show 1.1 ohms in all combinations.
 - All multi-pin plugs show proper readings/good connections throughout electrical panel.
 - Cleaned contacts on regulator...no change.
 - Jumpered power directly from battery to reg. No change.
 - Ran a temporary ground from elect. panel to frame. No change.
 - Tried spare reg. and rect. from another harness. No change.
 - Cleaned green ground wire contact on rect. No change.
 - Checked that the plug going TO the rect. is getting ground....all good.
 - Left battery on trickle charger overnight and tested again. No change
 

 Two oddities (at least to this electrical idiot):
 *Both of my rectifiers show infinite or open resistance. Could I have TWO bad, completely dead rectifiers?
 * I don't remember attaching a ground to the frame other than the negative battery lead. Could this be a problem? (Even though I made a temporary ground from the electrical panel to the frame and nothing changed)

 What am I missing here? Why am I not getting 14-14.5 volts at RPM?

 When I rode the bike home, I removed the headlight fuse so I wouldn't kill the battery. When I got home, the battery actually read a little higher than when I left! So, it seems that it's partially charging, but why am I not getting full charge?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline DJ_AX

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 12:34:03 PM »
Just fixed a very similar problem on my 550.
Here's the thread ... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=110400.0

It turned out to be my headlight on/off switch.
~ Vincent . . . '75 CB750 K5 . . . '97 BMW r1100rt . . . had; '75 CB550 K1 (sold) . . .  '73 CB350G (gifted) HELL YEAH!
Disclaimer: I could be wrong. :)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 12:43:25 PM »
- Regulator ohms out at 5.5 ohms (minus the reading from my meter, so ~5.3 ohms).
Clarify.  Test points used, whether in or out of circuit, etc.  Electrical troubleshooting requires precision, accuracy.

- All multi-pin plugs show proper readings/good connections throughout electrical panel.
Well, then you don't need us if everything is proper and we have no way of telling you have the right stuff there.   ;D

 
Two oddities (at least to this electrical idiot):
 *Both of my rectifiers show infinite or open resistance. Could I have TWO bad, completely dead rectifiers?
Of course possible.  However, diodes need enough voltage activate.  Are you using the diode test function on the test meter?  Knowing the test equipment is as important as knowing the circuit being tested.

 
* I don't remember attaching a ground to the frame other than the negative battery lead. Could this be a problem? (Even though I made a temporary ground from the electrical panel to the frame and nothing changed)
All circuit devices need a connection to BOTH the Battery POS and the Battery NEG.
Are you saying you ignored the return path connections?

When I rode the bike home, I removed the headlight fuse so I wouldn't kill the battery. When I got home, the battery actually read a little higher than when I left! So, it seems that it's partially charging, but why am I not getting full charge?

The alternator outputs self limit to their maximum capability.  If you ask for more than can be delivered, the offset is provided by the battery as long as it has enough stored energy.
The 550 normally has 150 delivery maximum fro the alternator at ideal RPM.  If your bike demands more than that, the battery voltage falls as the battery depletes.  This means that if your bike has components that demand more than the alternator can provide, you see low voltage, which can be caused by faulty charging system or simply asking it to provide ,ore than it can delivery.

Stop looking ONLY at the alternator and address what you are asking of it in terms of loading.  If you are asking for a 200 load on the 150 alternator, it is natural for the voltage to steadily fall as the battery gives up it's stored power, augmenting the difference between the outgo and the input of power.

From a voltage only viewpoint, exceeding the load, can "look" exactly like a faulty charging system when the load HASN'T been exceeded.

What can you tell us about non-stock electrical parts that have been added to the bike's electrical loads?

-------------------------
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 01:26:48 PM »
 I'm going to try to adress/reply to some of TwoTired responses. I don't know how to do multiple quotes like that, so stick with me...

 -Non-stock electrical components: Pamco points replacement. Other than than, all stock stuff. Coils test good. Caps test good. DISCLAIMER: The CB500 controls are the type that have a three position headlight switch: OFF/LO/ HIGH. The 550 harness is made to run with headliht always on, going off when the start button is pushed. My headlight is always on, even in the off position. Don't know why, suspect it's in the switch.

 -When I said that all multi-pin connectors read correct/test good, I meant that I checked all connections, at the electrical panel. All plugs fit tight and I checked/cleaned all connectors when testing them. I can test the whole path through the multi-pin connectors....meaning I don't think I have a broken pin, bad wire, etc. in the connections on the panel. That's all I meant by that.

 - When testing the rect., I set my multi-meter to the Ohms setting and tried it at 20K and 200K. I tested the three yellow wires against the red/white wire in all combinations. I reversed the leads on my meter and tried again. Just for a sanity check, I did he same thing with the green wire. I get nothing; "OL" or infinite on my meter on both rectifiers I have.

 - I didn't "ignore" any return path when doing the wiring harness. At least not on purpose. This bike was literally built with leftovers and scrap parts. I KNOW I grounded the neg. battery cable to the frame at the engine mount. I don't remember seeing or grounding a wire anywhere else. Is there supposed to be a ground from the harness to the frame somewhere? However, I can check the green wire on the plug leading to the rectifier and it tests OK, showing that the harness has ground, as does the electrical panel.

 - A, B and C: Did all that. It measures the same no matter what combination.
 - D: Read above about checking rect. I get no reading at all on either one of the two I have.
 - E: Did this. I get 5.5 ohms. So, subtract what my mete reads and I'm just above 5 ohms.
 - F: Did this. I get 1.1 ohms (again, subtract my meter and it's less than one ohm) in all combinations. As a sanity check, I tested a known good alternator and got identical readings.
 - G: Clarification needed: when you say disconnected terminals, you mean on the reg. itself, or the harness?
 
 Gonna stop there for now, pending further review. ;)
 

'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 03:16:17 PM »
- When testing the rect., I set my multi-meter to the Ohms setting and tried it at 20K and 200K. I tested the three yellow wires against the red/white wire in all combinations. I reversed the leads on my meter and tried again. Just for a sanity check, I did he same thing with the green wire. I get nothing; "OL" or infinite on my meter on both rectifiers I have.
I guess you'd better tell us what meter(s) you have. so we can tell you where to place the function switch for the test.


- I didn't "ignore" any return path when doing the wiring harness. At least not on purpose. This bike was literally built with leftovers and scrap parts. I KNOW I grounded the neg. battery cable to the frame at the engine mount. I don't remember seeing or grounding a wire anywhere else. Is there supposed to be a ground from the harness to the frame somewhere? However, I can check the green wire on the plug leading to the rectifier and it tests OK, showing that the harness has ground, as does the electrical panel.

The wire harness connects all the greens to the frame, usually where the coils mount.  Paint does not conduct electricity very well. Metal does, though.
The frame and engine metal is what connects the greens to the battery NEG cable.

- D: Read above about checking rect. I get no reading at all on either one of the two I have.
Probably a meter function select issue.  We'll have to see your meter to give more basic instructions.

- E: Did this. I get 5.5 ohms. So, subtract what my mete reads and I'm just above 5 ohms.

 - F: Did this. I get 1.1 ohms (again, subtract my meter and it's less than one ohm) in all combinations. As a sanity check, I tested a known good alternator and got identical readings.
Field coil and stator coils are OK then.  Good to verify what isn't broke, to move on to what might be.

- G: Clarification needed: when you say disconnected terminals, you mean on the reg. itself, or the harness?
The regulator connects to the Harness. Disconnect (3 wires) and measure unconnected regulator terminals so the harness cannot effect measurement taken on the regulator.

The concept is to get the individual components into a "should work" classification.  If you assemble good components in the correct way, it has to work.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 06:34:26 AM »
 - Pulled the gas tank and verified that I did, in fact, attach the green ground wire to the frame at the coil mount.

 - Meter is a Radio Shack , Cat. No. 22-810.

 - Measured the regulator on the bike and get 3 ohms in both directions (2.8 with meter correction).

 - Measured spare regulator and do, in fact, get 0 ohms. Does that mean the reg. on the bike is faulty?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline mronegear

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 07:04:11 AM »
sorry, but i have a quite similar problem with charging...

My cb 550 f (1976) is only charging correct with lights off. I have stock lights.

The battery was at 12,51 Volts, (almost) full loaded.

lights off: 1000 (12,43V) 2000 (12,6V) 3000 (13,66V) 4000 (13,7V) 5000 (14,1V)
lights on: 1000 (12,3 V)  2000 (12,22V) 3000 (12,42V) 4000 (12,55V) 5000 (12,61V)

I cleaned the contacts of regulator and reticifer and i measured 10,8V at the regulator between black and green with ignition on, lights off, no running motor.
There should be Battery + (12,51V) or am i wrong? 10,8V seems not enough?!

Thanx for your thoughts,

Frank

Offline Scott S

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 09:32:12 AM »
 Got it....triple and quadruple checked and found a grounded winding on the stator (the one with the three yellow wires). Pulled it and it looked sorta crispy to me, too. Pics to follow.

 We spliced the harness onto the windings from my CB500 (known and tested good) and everything works now! Getting 14+ volts when charging.

 Thanks for evryones help. I suck at electrical.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 11:16:31 AM »
 Here's the winding from the 550. Might be hard to tell from the pic, but it's sorta brown and crispy. Even though it ohm'd out OK< when we checked for ground, one circuit was bad. That's why I was getting SOME charge, but not full charge.



 This is the one from the 500. Much "brighter" and cleaner looking, and it checked out OK.



 Cut the three yellow wires, soldered them to the harness with the correct plug for the main wiring harness and BINGO! She's good to go!

'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 11:32:25 AM »
- Pulled the gas tank and verified that I did, in fact, attach the green ground wire to the frame at the coil mount.

 - Meter is a Radio Shack , Cat. No. 22-810.

 - Measured the regulator on the bike and get 3 ohms in both directions (2.8 with meter correction).

 - Measured spare regulator and do, in fact, get 0 ohms. Does that mean the reg. on the bike is faulty?

When you measure the rectifier, are you using the diode setting on the meter?  Are you measuring the rectifier stand alone or connected to the circuit?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Scott S

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Re: Only charging to 12.4-12.8 volts at ~3-4K rpm.
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 12:02:20 PM »
 Used ohm setting at first, then diode setting. I measure it dosconnected from the harness. I've done so much, I get confused, but I think I used the one with 0 ohms because the one on the bike was charging at a little over 15V at RPM.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650