Author Topic: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?  (Read 4226 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cougar

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
  • Stamping Ground, Kentucky U.S.A.
RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« on: August 27, 2012, 12:49:09 PM »
Hmm, so here's the deal. With the bike running and level from side to side front to back. If I shut off the gas after a couple of minutes running the bikes rpm's go from 1000-1100 to up over 4000, then the bike stumbles and dies. After much searching, what I've read says the mains are to rich. So here is my set-up. Round tops, 115 main, 40 pilot, clips were set on the bottom ring (richest) but I readjusted them today to the second groove from the top (almost leanest,didn't help). I'm running a Hondamatic 4>1 header with a 2 1/2" outlet this is going into a home made muffler that's 3 1/2" across, 16" long, with a 2 1/2" baffle wrapped with numerous layers of screen. The carbs are breathing through a bread box breather with AC air filter material (not very restrictive). Floats checked and on the money. What do you think ? So do I need to drop down a size on my jets? Drop a size on the pilot jet ?  Thanks in advance!   ...cougar...   P.S. Any questions just ask :) !
I'm not prejudice, I'll weld anything that pays! Knowledge that is shared is Never Lost!!   Right is right, wrong is wrong! The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie! DEAL WITH IT ACCORDINGLY !!!   I HATE "DIAL-UP"

Offline NewOldSchool

  • Apprentice
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 12:52:34 PM »
If you shut off the gas the engine runs on whatever fuel is in the bowls of the carburetors. Once this runs out the engine leans way out and then dies.

This lean condition causes the engine to rev-out and then die.
Not putting miles on your bike is like not having sex with your Girl Friend so she'll be more desirable to her next Boy Friend.

Swoop

  • Guest
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 12:53:59 PM »
Sounds normal to me. My lawnmower does the same thing. Does it run okay otherwise?

bollingball

  • Guest
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 01:01:03 PM »
What does your plug chop tell you?

Ken

Offline Duke McDukiedook

  • Space Force 6 Star General
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,690
  • Wish? Did somebody say wish?
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 01:28:22 PM »
What is a round top?

+1 on doing a plug chop, your above test tells me you ran out of gas, nothing more.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 01:50:52 PM »
Main jet is fed from near bottom of float bowl, the pilot jet from higher up in the fuel supply.

The mixture must be very rich at idle, so that opening the mechanical slide doesn't over-lean the mix for engine pick up.  But, it also means that the slides have to be more open to keep the mixture running with the excess fuel.  Still, the idle mixture is inefficient and the engine sort of labors to maintain idle rpm, using only a small portion of the fuel being fed to actually spin the crank.

As the float bowl level drops after fuel valve shut off, the mixture gradually leans as it must lift the fuel a longer distance from bowl to reach the carb bore  The idle mix is getting more efficient and the RPM slowly rises even though the slide hasn't been opened more than before.  Next, the fuel level drops further and the pilot jet tube sucks air instead of fuel, which leans the mixture even more as it transitions from too rich to too lean, and the engine races, until there is not enough fuel to support combustion.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline cougar

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
  • Stamping Ground, Kentucky U.S.A.
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 03:06:42 PM »
NewOldSchool ; LOL, yes when I shut off the gas at the petcock the motor runs on  the remaining gas in the float bowls till it runs out. Then the motor dies  :o ! But you mention it leans out causing it to Rev out before dying. See below.     Swoop ; For the most part yes it runs good from a little above idle, from about 2500 and up. See below.     bollingball ; Rich (sooty).     DukieFrankenkit ; Sorry, round top is the typical carb for the 1971-1976 SOHC cb750. See below.     TwoTired ; Yes the mixture seems to be rich at idle, hence the increase in rpm's as the gas runs out. Rich enough to soot the plugs.                  When I try to adjust the idle mixture, starting at 1 complete turn from closed, I can get some increase in idle, but only to 1.5 turns then no more improvement. My air screws have been modified to close the hole that is ther on most if not all new idle screws. My line of reasoning is because the idle gets higher as the fuel runs out that the mixture is getting closer to Perfect ! From what I've read, a person tunes the carb to get the highest rpm that can be gotten at idle meaning the best fuel/air mixture. Since I'm reading rich (sooty) on my plugs and the rpm gets higher as the fuel runs out, that tells me that the mixture is acheiving a better mixture causing the rpm's to raise. The best tune is one that gets the highest rpm and smoothest motor. From idle to about 2500 rpm the motor doesn't run as smoothly as it does above that point. So my fuel/air mix has to be off. Ok, I'm sure I'll get bombarded with complaining but some one will have the info I'm searching for, LOL.   ...cougar...
I'm not prejudice, I'll weld anything that pays! Knowledge that is shared is Never Lost!!   Right is right, wrong is wrong! The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie! DEAL WITH IT ACCORDINGLY !!!   I HATE "DIAL-UP"

Offline Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,905
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »
A perfectly tuned engine will rev up as it runs out of fuel. Doesn't mean your's is rich or lean. Bad example but did you ever watch a dragster rev when the fuel is turned off?
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Old Scrambler

  • My CB750K3 has been in 39 States & 5 Provinces
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,810
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 04:20:13 PM »
so drop your idle jets to 35s, set the air-screws at 1-1.25 "andforgetaboutit"
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
'63 CL72 Project(s)
'66 CL77 Red
'67 Triumph T100C
'73 750K3 Owned since New
'77 750F2 Cafe Project
2020 ROYAL ENFIELD Himalayan

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2012, 06:15:45 PM »
TwoTired ; Yes the mixture seems to be rich at idle, hence the increase in rpm's as the gas runs out. Rich enough to soot the plugs.                  When I try to adjust the idle mixture, starting at 1 complete turn from closed, I can get some increase in idle, but only to 1.5 turns then no more improvement. My air screws have been modified to close the hole that is ther on most if not all new idle screws. My line of reasoning is because the idle gets higher as the fuel runs out that the mixture is getting closer to Perfect !
True before it transitions to too lean.

From what I've read, a person tunes the carb to get the highest rpm that can be gotten at idle meaning the best fuel/air mixture.
True for "modern" carbs like the PD's used in 77 and 78, later CV carbs in the early 80's.  But, the 750's PD carbs have accelerator pumps to shoot gas into the carb throats when the slides are raised.  Without the pump (as in your early style carbs), it must have an over rich idle, or it will stumble badly when you twist the throttle, especially so when the engine is under load.

The pods have severely changed carb throat vacuum, reducing it, and this make the carbs draw less fuel from existing jets.  The big pilot jet and the modified air screws were attempts to get the pilot circuit to provide more fuel with the reduced vacuum.  It's a balancing act.  If you are reading the spark plugs correctly as truly too rich, the cumulative mods that were made to them probably went too far.  Engines are more forgiving of over rich than they are for too lean, which is why most bike modifiers think way rich is THE answer, I expect.    It's hard to tune by sound alone.

The prescribed method is with an engine/chassis dyno and a fuel map from a sniffed exhaust.

Alternately, a test track and several sets of clean plugs, a stop watch, and lots of patience with successive tweaks.

Or, trial and error until one gets tried of twiddling it.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,835
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2012, 06:52:47 PM »
Are you totally sure the ignition system is up to snuff?
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline cougar

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
  • Stamping Ground, Kentucky U.S.A.
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 07:52:18 PM »
Don R ; LOL, I've led a sheltered life, never been to a drag strip and on TV you don't get to see that part,LOL.        Old Scrambler ; That's what I'll probably wind up doing. Now to find pilot jets for my round tops.       TwoTired ; Yeah I'm trying to find that sweet spot just before it leans out to much,LOL. I agree with your reasoning that my older carbs have to run a little rich but sooting the plugs would indicate to me that it's to rich. Not sure if your mentioning Pods was toward me or in general. I'm running a breadbox breather with air conditioning filter material, which doesn't create much restriction. It's looking like I'll just drop to #35 pilot jets. and see if that helps.       seanbarney ; Well I don't really know how to test for a major spark, but the bike runs Very well from about 2500 to redline. I'm saying Really well to the point that if I were to change to a 17/48 sprocket combination it might just pull the front wheel with a yank of the throttle. I ran with that combination for the first year I had the bike and the throttle responce was VERY pleasing  ;D ;D ! But it was  to buzzy for me and again the milage was Crap!   ...cougar...
I'm not prejudice, I'll weld anything that pays! Knowledge that is shared is Never Lost!!   Right is right, wrong is wrong! The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie! DEAL WITH IT ACCORDINGLY !!!   I HATE "DIAL-UP"

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,835
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 08:09:55 PM »
sounds like ignition is good...first thing I'd try is is removing idle air screws+springs and I can't remember if there is an o-ring/washer in there on these carbs, and blasting some carb cleaner in there, those passages can get plugged easily...reset idle mixture, Have you checked the fuel level in the bowl with the clear tube method? double checked your idle jet sizing? Idle jets are new?-many have had problems with aftermarket jets...original? or otherwise old?-may have been drilled or otherwise mucked up by a previous owner...also I would try the stock needle setting, and only move one notch at a time....edit; I am certainly not a carb guru, last time I tried to jet a set of these carbs to anything other than the stock airbox, I ended up giving up and putting the airbox back on.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 08:13:37 PM by seanbarney41 »
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline cougar

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
  • Stamping Ground, Kentucky U.S.A.
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2012, 08:43:43 PM »
seanbarney ; Haven't blasted through those holes in a while. But the bike has always run this way. I've not tried the fuelcheck with a clear hose. I just pulled the rack and went through it and set the floats at the specified amount and my carbs set level so they should be good. Idle jets are 40's and the mains are 115, that I'm sure and they are clear. The carbs were rebuilt by me previously and I'm kind of anal when rebuilding things. Got the kits from these folks http://olypen.com/retro/ . This was the kit, http://olypen.com/retro/KH-0134N.jpg .   ...cougar...
I'm not prejudice, I'll weld anything that pays! Knowledge that is shared is Never Lost!!   Right is right, wrong is wrong! The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie! DEAL WITH IT ACCORDINGLY !!!   I HATE "DIAL-UP"

Offline Spanner 1

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,092
  • CB 750 K0 ( always thought it was a K1!) + CB750K8
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2012, 08:48:03 PM »
My bike revs to 5,000 rpm's when the fuel runs out in the carbs... so I've got ya beat! Anyone else?
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2012, 12:08:01 AM »
TwoTired ; Yeah I'm trying to find that sweet spot just before it leans out to much,LOL. I agree with your reasoning that my older carbs have to run a little rich but sooting the plugs would indicate to me that it's to rich. Not sure if your mentioning Pods was toward me or in general. I'm running a breadbox breather with air conditioning filter material, which doesn't create much restriction.
That's exactly the same issue as pods.  The induction changes have screwed up the carb throat vacuum levels that Honda tuned the carbs to accommodate.

Air filter systems are NOT just for looks and style.  They are functional components that work in concert with the rest of the engine, and the carbs are jetted and tuned with their characteristics.

Good Luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Magilla

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
  • My bike: 1976 CB750F
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2012, 03:53:07 AM »
I think this thread should be renamed to "my bike runs perfectly normal, what should I do?"

All motors rev up when they lean out as they run out of gas.  The fastest way to stop this is to not shut off the gas while it's running.  Presto, it's fixed.  :)
1972   Honda CB350
1972   Yamaha 500
1982   Yamaha 650
1988   Harley Sportster 883
1983   HD FXR Shovelhead
2003   HD Heritage Softail
2006   Victory Vegas Jackpot
1980   Honda CB650
1976   Honda CB750K
1982   Honda CB750
1964   Honda CA95
1982   Kawasaki 550
1974   Honda CL360
1975   Suzuki GT550
1981   Honda CB750
1981   Honda CB750
1970   Norton Commando
1972   Yamaha U7E
1970   BMW R50/5
1976   Honda CB750F

Offline Lostboy Steve

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,096
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2012, 07:30:55 AM »
I think this thread should be renamed to "my bike runs perfectly normal, what should I do?"

All motors rev up when they lean out as they run out of gas.  The fastest way to stop this is to not shut off the gas while it's running.  Presto, it's fixed.  :)

+1
1968 Honda Z50
1977 Honda CB550K
2018 Indian Scout

Offline NewOldSchool

  • Apprentice
  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
Re: RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2012, 11:06:12 AM »
I think this thread should be renamed to "my bike runs perfectly normal, what should I do?"

All motors rev up when they lean out as they run out of gas.  The fastest way to stop this is to not shut off the gas while it's running.  Presto, it's fixed.  :)

+1

This.


I don't understand what the problem is here? You are trying to tune your bike to not rev higher and lean out when you turn off the gas and let the engine run until the bowls are dry?
Not putting miles on your bike is like not having sex with your Girl Friend so she'll be more desirable to her next Boy Friend.

Offline Blackandsilver

  • dont forget the joker
  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 129
  • Motorcycles kill brain cells
    • 76 cb750
RPM's go Up as fuel runs out ! Lucky, Hondaman, carb Gurus ?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2012, 12:07:03 PM »
If your plugs are black and the bike is not performing, try raising your floats to simulate running out of gas. It takes no time. If it improves then leave it alone. Try 2mm higher. It's also a free test.



Win some lose some, it's all the same to me.
I will never die