Author Topic: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???  (Read 15001 times)

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Offline Brantley

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836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« on: September 08, 2012, 05:09:57 PM »
Finally getting around to assembling my 750 K5 top end. I'm using a Cruzinimage (the "cheap ebay") 836 kit. After spending the afternoon with a file and caliper getting the 8 dowel pins with rubber seals to not sit proud of the cylinder surface I decided to dry fit the head to double check those little guys, even though I used a steel rule to check 'em. First fit I found I could gently rock the head back and forth. Removed, scratched head, rechecked dowels. Refit and grabbed the feeler gauges- I got .015"/ .38mm clearance between the head and jugs. More head scratching made me realize I noticed a slight ring of oil on top of the 2 and 3 pistons, which were at or near TDC. Turned the engine slightly and the head dropped flat to the jugs. The head and jugs were both milled .005". Grabbed the caliper and measured the head gasket that came with the kit (branded "D&K") and got .046"/1.17mm at the thinnest of the fiber and .057"/1.47mm at the thinnest of the fire ring. Being a pack rat, I still have the head gasket that came from this engine and measured it- both the fiber and fire ring measure .045"/ 1.15mm at the smallest points. So the long winded back story leads to this question: Am I to rely on the thickness of the head gasket to keep the pistons from hitting the outer edge of the combustion chamber?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 05:51:43 PM by Brantley »

Offline Kickstart

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 08:21:49 PM »
I don't have an answer for you, as I'm pretty new to this... sorry... but I have a few questions, and your answers may help others who know more about installing 836 kits help you with your current issue.

How proud do the edge of the pistons sit above the deck when they are at TDC?

Did you do any head work to to increase the diameter of the combustion chamber to match the new diameter of your pistons?

I'm in the middle of my build using +1.0 pistons, and I've also milled the deck and the head (0.01" on the deck and 0.005" on the head).  I decided to grind a quench band in the combustion chambers, not only to improve performance, but because I was worried about the piston not having enough clearance.  I have some pictures in my build thread.
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 10:11:37 PM »
Update: Forged ahead with assembly. Crank turns freely, as prior, with head gasket installed and torqued. I suppose my concern lay with this is the first post-K3 engine I've rebuilt; I've never fit a head without the gasket to check that those dowels clear, hence never noticing how proud the pistons sit above the deck.

Kickstart: As I said, I got a .015" feeler between the head and jugs. That's all I have to go on. I didn't add a quench band as the head is already ported, milled and assembled (and I want to ride before mountain snow time kicks in).

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 10:20:59 PM »
If you don't have enough clearance you will bend valves or worse when you crank it or fire it up. You took 0.010 off your clearance by milling the head and block. Were the cruisenimages pistons have the same pin to piston top height? If not you'll need to raise the quench area in the head unless there is more than 0.010 clearance. How much clearance is needed?
Dissassembling the head would be cheaper than fixing all the damage by not having enough clearance.
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 12:33:48 AM »
That's amazing mate, are you sure they only machined 5 thou off both surfaces? I had two sets of those pistons but didn't use them, but I did look at them and they didn't (from memory) have any dome worth talking about, if I was you I'd remove the head and head gasket and see if in fact the pistons sit proud of the cylinder block. If the engineer did only take .005" off the cylinder block they shouldn't sit proud of it, especially with the base gasket in place. Cheers, Terry. ;D
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2012, 03:11:55 AM »
If the engineer took 0.050 off both head and block you probably have a real problem on your hands...
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2012, 08:53:14 AM »
Gotta ask - do you have the correct dowels in those positions? The top end has dowels of same diameter but different lengths for the cylinder alignment and the head. Can't give precise numbers/positions off the top of my head without doing research for you. 
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Offline Don R

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 09:10:02 AM »
Same kit, My pistons sit .008 above the deck at the edge of the piston top. I haven't cut the cylinder at all. I just got the head back from a .010 cut. My gasket measured .060, I'm told they compress .002 and we need .040 clearance leaving me .018 extra. However that doesn't allow for the dome or valve clearance. I did grind the fire ring before milling the head but now it's back to about where it was before the cut. That's as far as I got.
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 12:20:13 PM »
If you don't have enough clearance you will bend valves or worse when you crank it or fire it up. You took 0.010 off your clearance by milling the head and block. Were the cruisenimages pistons have the same pin to piston top height? If not you'll need to raise the quench area in the head unless there is more than 0.010 clearance. How much clearance is needed?
Dissassembling the head would be cheaper than fixing all the damage by not having enough clearance.
Aware of the first two points. Not sure of the pin to top height- didn't think to check, as these look like stock pistons, only bigger. Terry, maybe you could check this for me on your uninstalled ones, before I tear this back down? I plan to measure valve to piston clearance once I have the cam/ rockers in.

That's amazing mate, are you sure they only machined 5 thou off both surfaces? I had two sets of those pistons but didn't use them, but I did look at them and they didn't (from memory) have any dome worth talking about, if I was you I'd remove the head and head gasket and see if in fact the pistons sit proud of the cylinder block. If the engineer did only take .005" off the cylinder block they shouldn't sit proud of it, especially with the base gasket in place. Cheers, Terry. ;D
Mrieck's machinist did the head. The jugs were done by a reputable local shop that specializes in airhead Beemers. I asked him to go .004" with a max of .005". He told me he went .005" because it wasn't cleaning up entirely less than that. The domes, to me, are very slight and mimic stockers. They definitely sit proud as I described above.

Put the head, cam, and the gasket together using plasticine on the piston domes and see what you actually have for clearance. That's what most guys do when the concern comes up.
I have a vision. It is of the blank stare I will get after asking big chain auto store employee for piston clay. Seriously, good point. I'll go down this road if I have to.

Gotta ask - do you have the correct dowels in those positions? The top end has dowels of same diameter but different lengths for the cylinder alignment and the head. Can't give precise numbers/positions off the top of my head without doing research for you. 

The ones on the outside are around 18mm. The eight that hold the orings came in around 13.75+. I took them down to around 13.05mm. All are 12mm nominal dia.

Same kit, My pistons sit .008 above the deck at the edge of the piston top. I haven't cut the cylinder at all. I just got the head back from a .010 cut. My gasket measured .060, I'm told they compress .002 and we need .040 clearance leaving me .018 extra. However that doesn't allow for the dome or valve clearance. I did grind the fire ring before milling the head but now it's back to about where it was before the cut. That's as far as I got.
That, at least, is encouraging. I suppose that means mine sit .013" proud. Is .060" the head and base together or just a thick head?

Thanks, guys. I'm gonna go measure some more stuff now.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 10:28:18 PM by Brantley »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 08:51:31 PM »
Finally getting around to assembling my 750 K5 top end. I'm using a Cruzinimage (the "cheap ebay") 836 kit. After spending the afternoon with a file and caliper getting the 8 dowel pins with rubber seals to not sit proud of the cylinder surface I decided to dry fit the head to double check those little guys, even though I used a steel rule to check 'em. First fit I found I could gently rock the head back and forth. Removed, scratched head, rechecked dowels. Refit and grabbed the feeler gauges- I got .015"/ .38mm clearance between the head and jugs. More head scratching made me realize I noticed a slight ring of oil on top of the 2 and 3 pistons, which were at or near TDC. Turned the engine slightly and the head dropped flat to the jugs. The head and jugs were both milled .005". Grabbed the caliper and measured the head gasket that came with the kit (branded "D&K") and got .046"/1.17mm at the thinnest of the fiber and .057"/1.47mm at the thinnest of the fire ring. Being a pack rat, I still have the head gasket that came from this engine and measured it- both the fiber and fire ring measure .045"/ 1.15mm at the smallest points. So the long winded back story leads to this question: Am I to rely on the thickness of the head gasket to keep the pistons from hitting the outer edge of the combustion chamber?


I've not seen these pistons sitting above the deck on the last 5 engines I built with them (since 2010 or so), so this seems curious. I HAVE had issues with Athena's cylinder base gasket being too thin, though, at about 1/2 the thickness of the Honda or Vesrah version: what brand of gasket is on yours? The Honda and Vesrah gaskets are about .030" thick, while the removed [well cooked and leaky] Honda gasket was .021" thick. This puts the Athena less than the used OEM gasket, which could raise the pistons.

The head gasket: most of them are 1.00mm when torqued in place, except the ones from Wiseco (Cometic brand), which don't compress hardly at all. The ones of those I've used recently are 1.12mm thick, both torqued at 20 ft-lbs or not.

The big question: how proud of the deck are the piston shoulders? You can guesstimate about .006"-.008" of rod stretch at 9000 RPM during the overlap cycle, based on [very old] dragracing notes I used to have, and add that to the highest point you may encounter.

When the cylinders get decked, those oil-seal dowels do stick up that much more: like you, I just cut off the same distance from them to make things fit up. Most of them measure 13.75 +/-.05mm unmolested, Honda calls them a "special" part that has to be hand-made today from the longer ones. In some cases where I also milled the head 1.04mm (the F2/3 engines with stock pistons, returning them to 9:1 CR), I have alternately shortened the dowels or counterbored the head to accept the extra length. The latter seems to make a drier engine (the "F" engines leak more often than the earlier "K" engines, so I try to improve on it a little), long term.

I use [cheap] modeling clay from the hobby shop to check my piston/valve/head clearances. Doesn't take much!
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Offline Don R

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 09:10:17 PM »
My base gasket was a Honda that had been on a shelf for a very long time. I'm pretty sure this engine hadn't been opened before. Everything was stock even though a PO had claimed various big bore kits. Depending on how many beers he had it went from 836 to 900 to 936!
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 11:07:30 PM »
Quote
I've not seen these pistons sitting above the deck on the last 5 engines I built with them (since 2010 or so), so this seems curious. I HAVE had issues with Athena's cylinder base gasket being too thin, though, at about 1/2 the thickness of the Honda or Vesrah version: what brand of gasket is on yours? The Honda and Vesrah gaskets are about .030" thick, while the removed [well cooked and leaky] Honda gasket was .021" thick. This puts the Athena less than the used OEM gasket, which could raise the pistons.

Curious, indeed, as DonR's are proud as well. The base gasket is Vesrah.

Quote
The head gasket: most of them are 1.00mm when torqued in place, except the ones from Wiseco (Cometic brand), which don't compress hardly at all. The ones of those I've used recently are 1.12mm thick, both torqued at 20 ft-lbs or not.

The big question: how proud of the deck are the piston shoulders? You can guesstimate about .006"-.008" of rod stretch at 9000 RPM during the overlap cycle, based on [very old] dragracing notes I used to have, and add that to the highest point you may encounter.

Not really sure how to measure that accurately- depth gage? How much clearance is needed? (Don, I admit I was a lil' confused by your first post- did you mean .040" is minimum head gasket thickness? Or...) If we're gonna guesstimate let's say .008" rod stretch + .008" that Don measured + .005" milled from the deck = .021". Then subtracted from the .039" (1mm) of torqued head gasket = .018". Is that too little? (Seems kinda little...)

Quote
When the cylinders get decked, those oil-seal dowels do stick up that much more: like you, I just cut off the same distance from them to make things fit up. Most of them measure 13.75 +/-.05mm unmolested, Honda calls them a "special" part that has to be hand-made today from the longer ones. In some cases where I also milled the head 1.04mm (the F2/3 engines with stock pistons, returning them to 9:1 CR), I have alternately shortened the dowels or counterbored the head to accept the extra length. The latter seems to make a drier engine (the "F" engines leak more often than the earlier "K" engines, so I try to improve on it a little), long term.

Does it seem odd that I had to take off .7-.8mm from these to get 'em flush?
Quote
I use [cheap] modeling clay from the hobby shop to check my piston/valve/head clearances. Doesn't take much!
I'm gonna have to do some outside research on how to do this. I knew what rotortiller was talking about, but have never done it.
My base gasket was a Honda that had been on a shelf for a very long time. I'm pretty sure this engine hadn't been opened before. Everything was stock even though a PO had claimed various big bore kits. Depending on how many beers he had it went from 836 to 900 to 936!
Man, I can't imagine the trouble a "936" kit would be givin me right now!

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 12:08:01 AM »
Quote
Man, I can't imagine the trouble a "936" kit would be givin me right now!

No trouble at all, no such thing.... ;D ;)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2012, 01:46:20 AM »
Does it seem odd that I had to take off .7-.8mm from these to get 'em flush?

It does, and further reinforces my concern about how much your machinist actually removed from the cylinder deck? Interesting....... ;D
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 09:49:30 AM »
Sorry if I posted confusing info, lets add my similar post from the hi po section.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=111795.0
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2012, 09:53:01 AM »
I used a dial caliper with a depth gauge but confirmed the piston heigth number with flat feeler gauges. The curve of the piston makes it difficult to measure.

 If it matters, my engine is a K4 according to the numbers. My brother was thinking there were very slightly different cylinder block heigths from different years. Not sure where he got that info. He is usually right.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 09:56:22 AM by Don R »
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 10:31:12 AM »
Quote
Man, I can't imagine the trouble a "936" kit would be givin me right now!

No trouble at all, no such thing.... ;D ;)
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 10:50:46 AM »
I didn't mean to veer us off track with a silly remark. But then I usually am silly, oops there I go again!
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 11:40:29 AM »
I used a dial caliper with a depth gauge but confirmed the piston heigth number with flat feeler gauges. The curve of the piston makes it difficult to measure.

 If it matters, my engine is a K4 according to the numbers. My brother was thinking there were very slightly different cylinder block heigths from different years. Not sure where he got that info. He is usually right.

Starting in the K4 (until the K6), the "varying height" issue started with the cylinders. Honda added several heights, like 0.25mm, 0.4mm, 0.8mm, and [I have even seen] 1.00mm extra height to the cylinders. By the K5, the pistons appeared to have shorter crowns because they would often be sitting down inside the deck at TDC.

I think (IMO, here, based on conversations with Honda reps of the day) that Honda was cognizant of the hard-to-get gasolines in the US at the time, due to the gas shortage (from the Arab Oil Embargo we imposed). The ads were showing up to 50 MPG, running on Regular gas, instead of Premium. The least expensive Engineering change, on Honda's part, would have been to lower the compression by making taller cylinders, and this could have been easily accomplished by not milling off as much of the bottom and top of the block before installing the sleeves. At first, I surmised that they could "get" 0.25mm from the existing molds because they were likely milling about 0.5mm (total) to clean them up (top + bottom), and all they needed to make them even taller was some shims in the molds. If you look at lots of K4/5 cylinders, you'll often see little evidences of a shim at the base, in the form of a slight raised ridge at their seams. If you also measure lots and lots of cylinders, you will find quite a variance between them, although today it's hard to tell if someone may have beaten you to the punch before you milled it, with their mill job.

The guys who were building the turbo motors in the late 1970s and early 1980s coveted these taller cylinders, too, just to get the compression down to 8.8:1 with a +4mm cylinder and one extra base gasket, instead of a steel shim gasket and 2 base gaskets (a combination which tended to leak right near the cam chain tensioner, from the oil feed tunnels).

The K0-K3 engines generally had the stock height, which caused problems with Powroll pistons, as one example: these had taller shoulders that would hit the head. Many of these needed the shoulders turned back just to fit. IIRC, it was almost 0.8mm of too-much height in those parts. A copper head gasket appeared in 1974 (I've forgotten the vendor) that came in 2mm (0.080"), 1.75mm, 1.5mm, 1.25mm, and 1.00mm (0.040") thicknesses, and in the ads I remember, were shown sitting over Powroll's popup11:1 pistons in an open engine. It was advertised as the "turbo engine solution" head gasket (for those of you who might have old CYCLE or MOTORCYCLE magazines of the era?), in sidebar ads...

So, at worst case, maybe turning off the shoulders of the pistons would solve it handily? I wouldn't suggest deepening a quench band into the head, but that's another viable solution. Who knows, maybe you'll invent something new and cool! :)
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Offline Kickstart

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 01:35:05 PM »
Put the head, cam, and the gasket together using plasticine on the piston domes and see what you actually have for clearance. That's what most guys do when the concern comes up.

...
I use [cheap] modeling clay from the hobby shop to check my piston/valve/head clearances. Doesn't take much!

How exactly is this done? 
I'm guessing: carefully put a 1-2mm think layer of clay on top of each piston, assemble everything (including the valve train) and slowly turn the crank through two full revolutions?

After you take it apart, can you then re-use the head gasket on the final build?
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 03:30:48 PM »
Use a band of clay so it has room to squish out, otherwise it will lock the engine.
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Offline Brantley

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2012, 03:53:12 PM »
Don, I actually could use a lil' levity as this "cheap" kit is TAXING my brain.

Ok, I procrastinated tearing the top back down in hopes those little gnomes or elves or whatever that fixed all the cobbler's shoes as he slept would appear. Didn't happen.

First, to shut Terry up about my machinist (no offense, mate- actually, thanks for getting me off my arse...)
Got three other cylinders laying about the shop, so I measured them:
K1: 3.343"
K3: 3.341"
K3: 3.339"
The one in question:
K5: 3.337" (that's post deck, Terry!)
I measured the piston above deck height and got .013" as I had guessed with Don's info.

Here ya go Don- the root of the problem:
Measured some stock pistons and these from the top of the pin bore to shoulder. I went for the smallest numbers (closest to edge) on both as getting a reference point due to diameter difference was difficult (as in using the circlip to stop the caliper won't work 'cause it's deeper in the 836):
Stock: .664"-.666"
836:   .679"-.680"
A .013"-.016" difference.

My base gasket was .019-.020" post-squish.

So what's the fix?

HM, by turning the shoulders do you mean it that simply? Turn a 2mm band by .013" cut around the shoulder and that's that? Or would the cut need blending or ramping (for lack of better words)? Would adding a .015" Cometic base to a Honda or Vesrah base cure my ills?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 09:54:08 AM by Brantley »

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 04:40:47 PM »
Don, I actually could use a lil' levity as this "cheap" kit is TAXING my brain.

Ok, I procrastinated tearing the top back down in hopes those little gnomes or elves or whatever that fixed all the cobbler's shoes as he slept would appear. Didn't happen.

First, to shut Terry up about my machinist (no offense, mate- actually, thanks for getting me off my arse...)
Got three other heads laying about the shop, so I measured them:
K1: 3.343"
K3: 3.341"
K3: 3.339"
The one in question:
K5: 3.337" (that's post deck, Terry!)
I measured the piston above deck height and got .013" as I had guessed with Don's info.

Here ya go Don- the root of the problem:
Measured some stock pistons and these from the top of the pin bore to shoulder. I went for the smallest numbers (closest to edge) on both as getting a reference point due to diameter difference was difficult (as in using the circlip to stop the caliper won't work 'cause it's deeper in the 836):
Stock: .664"-.666"
836:   .679"-.680"
A .013"-.016" difference.

My base gasket was .019-.020" post-squish.

So what's the fix?

HM, by turning the shoulders do you mean it that simply? Turn a 2mm band by .013" cut around the shoulder and that's that? Or would the cut need blending or ramping (for lack of better words)? Would adding a .015" Cometic base to a Honda or Vesrah base cure my ills?
Yes. You could stack  .020 and .010 steel base gaskets. They do not compress at all. You do need a smooth surface.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:50:37 PM by MRieck »
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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2012, 05:45:19 PM »
Mike, are you talkin' Cometic's rubber coated steel base gaskets, both?

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Re: 836 Clearance? Thicker head or base gasket???
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2012, 06:59:17 PM »
Mike, are you talkin' Cometic's rubber coated steel base gaskets, both?
Yes. Like I said....the sealing surfaces must be pretty smooth.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"