Author Topic: How quiet should it be?  (Read 3699 times)

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Offline sparty

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How quiet should it be?
« on: June 28, 2006, 02:47:06 PM »
Guys,

You may remember that my '72 CB750 engine was just rebuilt.  It is running strong, but I haven't pushed it too hard yet.  This is my first  air cooled inline four and I was wondering how much noise you should hear from this type of engine.  It seems like I can hear some slight "chain" noise?  But I am not sure if that is normal.  The cam chain is correctly adjusted, plus last night I checked to be sure.  It was also recently replaced with the rebuild.  I just sold my SV650 and except for the exhaust note, the engine was dead quiet.  My Kawa was the same way.  Are these CBs just a little noisy?
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 02:54:53 PM »
The lack of a water jacket on an aircooled motor means you hear more of the mechanical symphony the engine produces.  Camchain rustle, valvetrain clatter, clutch rattle, combustion noise and even a little piston slap.  They all contribute to a certain degree, even when properly tuned and set and in perfect shape.

I personally love it.  ;D

Offline sparty

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2006, 02:57:21 PM »
Groovie,

Thanks for the reply, I just wanted to make sure that my rebuild wasn't f'd up.

Sparty
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Offline Stormer

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2006, 03:00:29 PM »
All the above, plus the fact that air cooled engines are built with way bigger internal tolerances, since they work under greater temperatures variations.
Sory the bad english.

Offline toycollector10

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2006, 05:11:22 PM »
Then there is thermal shock from air cooled engines. This is part of what makes air cooled light aircraft engines so unreliable. Water cooled has a much, much longer cool down time.

I normally like to get as much heat out of my engine as I can before parking. i.e. just take it easy for the last two or three miles.
1969  CB 750 K0
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2006, 06:57:39 PM »
This is part of what makes air cooled light aircraft engines so unreliable.

Huh?  Excuse me?  Are you confusing long term durability with reliability?  How many auto engines could last 2000 hrs at 75% power output? :o
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2006, 07:20:19 PM »
Sparty, while these two are having a go at each other ;D you might like to consider your primary chains.

If your carbs are slightly out of sync, it causes the primaries to jump about.

Sam.
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Offline toycollector10

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2006, 02:29:21 AM »
Sorry TT, I'm not with you there..Isn't long term durability the same as reliability? Maybe not but they are definitely related.

It's a long story about product liability and the American trait of suing at the drop of a hat and apportioning blame. That is why the USA rarely produce new light aircraft designs, they just resurrect old product lines such as the C182 and Piper Cub because of certification issues. Basically, it's 1950's technology with a new look to it.

I didn't want to start a sh*tfight, I was just raising the issue of cooling your engine before shut down due to thermal shock and heat sink.....
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 01:30:11 AM by toycollector10 »
1969  CB 750 K0
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1973  Z1 Kawasaki

Offline dpen

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2006, 05:06:18 AM »
Instead of taking it easy for the last few miles you can let the bike idle once you stop.

After about 1 to 2 minutes you'll hear the idling speed drop as the motor "normalises".

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006, 06:04:55 AM »
Surely if you let it idle it just gets hotter (with no airflow)  ???
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Offline Gordon

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2006, 06:07:37 AM »
Surely if you let it idle it just gets hotter (with no airflow)  ???

This is true.  The same reason air cooled bikes don't like heavy traffic.

Offline Geeto67

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2006, 06:45:32 AM »
Sorry TT, I'm not with you there..Isn't long term durability the same as reliability? Maybe not but they are definitely related. I have been in aviation for over 35 years (Air Traffic) and have handled about 8 or 9 mayday calls from air cooled lighties, engine rough running or stopped....I have never had an engine failure in any of the cars I have had, water cooled.

It's a long story about product liability and the American trait of suing at the drop of a hat and apportioning blame. That is why the USA rarely produce new light aircraft designs, they just resurrect old product lines such as the C182 and Piper Cub because of certification issues. Basically, it's 1950's technology with a new look to it.

I didn't want to start a sh*tfight, I was just raising the issue of cooling your engine before shut down due to thermal shock and heat sink.....

Long term durability is not the same thing as reliability. Plus there are other factors involved. Aircooled aircraft engines have a specified service life, then then need to be overhauled. They spend the majority of their time at 75 to 100% throttle which is pretty hard on any engine. Compared to a car the 2000 hours or so is very short service life, so they do not have great long term durability. However in between those overhauls the majority of aircraft engines are very reliable. When you factor in human error, shoddy workmanship, defective parts, etc...it is easy to see how you can get a few mayday calls out of these engines. Let me give you some examples:

There is a condition in pilots to become hypersensitive when flying their aircraft in situations that leave them no recourse. A perfectly running engine sounds rough to them when they are flying over a large body of water with no land in sight for example. Flying into Oshkosh, WI across lake michigan a couple of years ago, I heard two calls from pilots claiming their engines were running rough...there was nothing wrong with their aircraft, they just thought there was.

I knew a guy with a cessna 172. It was a real nice airplane but at somepoint in its life the plane suffered a crack in the engine block. The plane continued to run fine and he ignored it, choosing to deal with the problem at service time. Fortunatly he was on the ground when the engine seized. A crack in the block can occur to any engine, and usually stems from a shoddy rebuild, abuse of the engine, or the blocks just get old (the plane was from the mid 1960s). They actually occur more in water cooled engines, as I have had several watercooled chevy V-8s in which I have cracked the blocks. So here is a situation where a legitimate problem devlops and instead of correcting the problem the owner chooses to ignore it frther exacerbating the situation, still no measure of the engines relaibility.

Mooney aircraft have dual magneatos to run the airplane, however they share a drive unit. Should one mag fail the other's job is to get you home, however if the drive fails then both mags are wiped out and the engine stops running. Kinda defeats the purpose of having two mags doesn't it. There are hundreds of cost saving shortcuts like this in the thousands of aircraft engine designs there are out there that have nothing to do with whether the engine is aircooled or not.

these are just a few real life examples to illustriate my point...there are an infinite number of factors that can contribute to an engine's unreliable nature and design of the cooling system is just one (anybody who has owned an old pontiac can attest to that btw). Because you see some failures doesn't automatically mean that the engine cooling system design is responsible for its unreliabile nature.

By the way: The Trinidad and Tabago, Husky, Maule, Glassair (which started as a kit plane), mooney ovation, and Beechcraft Starship are all certified airframe designs to come within the last 10 years (some coming from designs that were certified for the first time in the 1980s). The primary reasons the big three of light planes rehash old designs are: 1) it is cheaper to update than design from scratch, 2) the original aircraft are extremely durable, 3) Planes like the Cessna 172 and Piper Cherokee have a proven following and a built in market. As for engines, watercooling is starting to find its way into   light aricraft as well as deisel engines, new designs are certified every year but usually where they fall flat is fudning to put them into production or lack of contracts to get them into new aircraft. But it is just easy and convinent to blame America's litigious society (which does play a role but not as big a one as you think).   

now for sparty:

cb750s are noisy engines, the clutch being the biggest offender. With the bike at idle pull the clutch in and you should hear some of the chatter stop. If you are really concerned about the rebuild but don't want to tear it down, go to a bike dyno and run it. Pay close attention to the hp numbers, the power delivery, fuel curves, etc. If possible have the shop tune the bike using the dyno to get optimal performance. Your bike shoud get low 50's hp at the rear wheel (50-53hp), anything lower is indicative of a problem. the power deliver curves should be some what smooth, any major spikes or dips can also be indicative of a problem.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 06:56:23 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2006, 07:56:15 AM »
geeto,very good tutorial.i believe the chevy engine crack thing was caused just because they are chevys. :D
mark
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Offline hcritz

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2006, 09:13:11 AM »
A lot of interesting thoughts on Aircraft engines...
I've rebuilt a few myself...and used to do a bit of flying...
They do get run quit hard by automotive standards...but then, say an O320 is over 400 cube (if I remember correctly) and makes
80-90 HP or so...not very good HP/CU for sure...so should be pretty lightly loaded.
Seems technology has left the aircraft industry (Other than avionics) WAY behind. Seems foolish that the pilot should have to worry about Carb Heat....or for that matter a Carb at all...EFI is EXTREMELY reliable these days and with redundant systems should never have a failure. Thermal shock on cysl. on decent...hey...you know my air cooled 64 corvair has THERMOSTATS!!!! Gee...imagine that...thermostats!!! Cowl flaps and carb heat are things the pilot shouldn't have to worry about.
Compared to the cheapest auto engine made these days...the machine work inside an aircraft engine look like the parts were cut out with a hacksaw! I'm sure bringing a new product to the market is VERY expensive...and there is the issue of law suits.
I guess that's why we see a lot of interest in auto engine conversions...Cost of the conventional Aircraft engine is sooooo high!
Oh well...I don't fly anymore anyway!


eldar

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2006, 09:26:31 AM »
Every engine can have problems. It is where the problem comes from that is the question. Some are just designed poorly, dodge v10s for example. These engines leak more oil than an AMF harley. The chevy 305 was a crappy engine, their 302 was amazing though. Way better than fords 302. Look at the old ford fiesta and escorts, their 4 bangers always seem to blow gaskets and such. These were poor designs. Sure you can still get lucky and get a good engine in these classes but rarely.

Next you move on to poor maintenance. I see so many chrysler vehicles that are only a couple years old and they burn oil like some wreck taken from a junkyard. If you dont take care of something, it will die before its time no matter how good it was made.

I think light aircraft are not as well maintained as most owners are small companies or private. money is tighter and insurance for them is cheaper.


Offline hcritz

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2006, 10:20:08 AM »
Hey Eldar...
Probably right! Most of them I know sit on the tarmac for long periods of time...and then are put into service without much preflight.
The cost of a light aircraft, Maint., insurance, hangar fees, annuals.....etc...just about makes it unaffordable for most. Not to mention Fuel cost these days. SOHC bikes are a much cheaper hobby!!!
 I does reminds me a bit of Harley D. especially the old AMF days...building a product that was not very good...even they have been brought kicking and screaming into new technologies! The last one I saw didn't even leak oil!!!
I guess competition drive the manufactures...some of us remember the horrible quality that came from Detroit in the late 70s and 80s....Until Honda, Toyota etc...forced them to start building a better product, or go bust!
Still a Mopar guy here though! Need to get back on my 65 Convert!!!

Offline dusterdude

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2006, 10:29:22 AM »
yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
mark
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smashme33

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2006, 07:02:52 PM »
 Time for a pilot to speak a little...  ;)

 I wouldn't say that light aircraft engines are unreliable at all. For years, there have been redundant systems in these things, and the design of the engine is kept simple for a reason...safety and reliability. The more complex the system(which usually means lots more parts), the greater the chances of failure. A lot of these engines, like the O320(320c.i.[number denotes the cubic inches],these are usually 150hp, but there are some at 160hp), have stood the test of time and have proven themselves as a reliable design. I wouldn't want Lycoming to start changing to OHC and liquid cooling for small planes, too much more to go wrong. Perfect as it is.  Fuel injection was the best improvment that they made to these things.

 As far as the original post goes...enjoy the beautiful metallic orchestra!

Offline toycollector10

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Re: How quiet should it be?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2006, 02:39:38 AM »
Yeah, the orchestra. Sometimes I just open my legs away from the tank and it's all whirring and clattering away down there, makes me hope it doesn't decide to stop..... ;D
1969  CB 750 K0
1973  CB175
1973  Z1 Kawasaki