Author Topic: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.  (Read 24062 times)

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Offline dave500

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2012, 01:04:19 pm »
mine smoke on initial start as the assembly oil is burned away then clear,a couple of minutes,these never smoked off the showroom floor as they broke in.

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2012, 01:18:09 pm »
mine smoke on initial start as the assembly oil is burned away then clear,a couple of minutes,these never smoked off the showroom floor as they broke in.
I agree, it shouldn't happen. But, here we are. It is happening and short of disassembly, we grasp for straws.

Lots of anecdotal evidence leading one to hope it will seat in with use.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2012, 10:01:17 am »
I agree they shouldnt but this is a new engine rebuild with new seals! So either my new head gasket is bad or my new rings, or its breaking in. Either way i hope it wont result badly forcing me to rebuild again. But if i must, i must.

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2012, 10:10:41 am »
I agree they shouldnt but this is a new engine rebuild with new seals! So either my new head gasket is bad or my new rings, or its breaking in. Either way i hope it wont result badly forcing me to rebuild again. But if i must, i must.

I read up on this as I'm in your boat. rehoning the cylinder reduces the surface area that the scraper ring has to drag down against. The honing produces many sharp edged cross hatch lines that the ring rides on. A hard breakin knocks those sharp lines down increasing the surface area and reducing the smoking. That's what happens when the rings "bed in". An easy break in will cause these pointy hone markets to glaze over and harden, hence it smokes forever.

So say the proponents of hard breakins. This doesn't square with the fact that new engines have been honed and they don't smoke. Could be that factory honing may not be as sharp as the honing we've done on our rebuilds. Yeah, that must be it.  ;)   ;) 

Hope to get some hard miles on mine this weekend.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2012, 10:21:35 am »
Thats probably a factor. My guess is they dont want a costumer to buy a new bike that smokes so there may be another process to help bed in the rings prior to assembly. that along with the softer metal rings probably helped the rings set much quicker. I did not use nos rings so mine will probably take longer to break in. My rebuild wasnt exactly top notch though (first time rebuilding one of these little fours). I find twins much easier to work with but i just love this bike! how bad is yours smoking MCrider?

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2012, 10:48:29 am »
Thats probably a factor. My guess is they dont want a costumer to buy a new bike that smokes so there may be another process to help bed in the rings prior to assembly. that along with the softer metal rings probably helped the rings set much quicker. I did not use nos rings so mine will probably take longer to break in. My rebuild wasnt exactly top notch though (first time rebuilding one of these little fours). I find twins much easier to work with but i just love this bike! how bad is yours smoking MCrider?
Well, a picture worth 1000 words? How about a vid? If you fast forward to 8:45, that's about where i start it. Then around 10min you'll get a good shot. It's less in the vid than in person. way too much to be acceptable.
Phaedrus: 1972 Honda CB750

And at 12:45.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2012, 10:58:07 am »
Yeah mines about the same as that. On high revs i get alot of smoke. Have you taken yours on a break in ride yet?

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2012, 11:02:04 am »
Yeah mines about the same as that. On high revs i get alot of smoke. Have you taken yours on a break in ride yet?
No. I have 10 miles on it and about 5 to 10 minutes running otherwise.  Hope to get it out this weekend for a flogging.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2012, 11:16:05 am »
Yeah mines about same. Can you update your success afterward? Im going to brake mine in this weekend. Ill let you know how it goes!

Offline MCRider

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2012, 11:22:34 am »
Yeah mines about same. Can you update your success afterward? Im going to brake mine in this weekend. Ill let you know how it goes!
Will do.  :D
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline dave500

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2012, 12:48:10 pm »
ive just first over sized a 550,this is the filter magnets after the first run about less than 2 hours and about a hundred kays,


then this is the next 250 kays

it smoked as it burnt off assembly lube for a couple of minutes only,the very first run is when they shed a heap of metal from the bore and rings,you can see it in the oil.

Offline Bailgang

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2012, 03:09:52 pm »
I had a similar predicament with my kids 750 when I first put it together but that had to do with the fact that it was a tired engine that needed an over bore but with my college student kid, his tight budget wouldn't allow doing it right the first time so I had to use what I had. In fact to make sure I could get the correct gap on the rings I had to use .25mm over rings and file fit them, that's how sloppy it was.

Once the bike was running it initially smoked like crazy especially at full throttle however the more I rode it the less it smoked until it got to the point it didn't smoke at all. Granted the above is not how one should put an engine together but financial circumstances didn't give me much choice and yes, my kid is saving for the parts needed to do it right and the engine will be coming back out this winter. However the point I'm trying to make is try not to get panicky at least not yet. Give it some time and ride it and see whether or not it smokes less and less as you put some miles on it. If nothing changes and still smokes regardless of how many miles you put on it, OK then you might have a problem.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2012, 07:44:42 am »
Thanks.for the advice. Im gunna try to put 50 on her today and see if anything changes. Ill report back when im done! Thanks for all your help on this topic guys. It should probably be renamed to engine break in smokibg or something.

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2012, 10:30:08 am »
Hey guys. took her for 65 miles yesterday and today. not very mich has changed. smoked like crazy the whole timne. at 25 miles i retorqued the head bolts to see if itd help. seemed to a bit. but overall very little with the amount of smoke has changed if any. still like a smoke screen. i posted a video of a few other things too, like i hear kind of a whining sound when i rev the engine in neutral. i only hear this sound while the rpm and coming down and i thought it may have to do with the hone/cylinder rings.. even though they are new. i used medium grit on my hone because i couldnt get ahold of the fine grit adapters. this may be a problem.

If i rehone the cylinders, should i also buy another new set of rings? these have only got 65 miles on them, but i dont know if there would be damage to them from the previous hone. or if i should even worry about honing again.

also i get much less smoke in higher gears on all rangs of RPM, why could this be? the second i drop a gear the smoke gets more and more intense.. Do you guys still think this could be rings seating? let me know! oh sorry aboutthe 5 min video, tried to keep it short.. watch please! Thanks

<object width="960" height="720"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/71f4nZlrywQ?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/71f4nZlrywQ?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="960" height="720" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Video Link
VIDEO0038
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 10:34:54 am by craywm »

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2012, 10:46:52 am »
the rough stuff is prob the cause of your problems, I only ever hone if there's scores /scratches and even then with fine I can remove a feelable score in 20 secs! the surface of the bore needs to be just as smooth as the rings, if not the oil will pass the rings, its either too rough, you honed to much away or both, if your going to strip again it would be best to take it to a machinist and see what they say, they will prob recomend re-bore and oversize pistons.
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Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2012, 10:52:32 am »
I only honed for 45 seconds. I didnt remove too much, but thought it might be too rough. Ugghh

Offline speedy gonzalais

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2012, 12:23:32 pm »
Have you checked the plugs etc... removed exhausts and checked the ports? your problems sounds like oil passing the rings but on how many cylinders? you think the head gasket could be a possibility, if it was it would only be on one cylinder at the most and that one would missfire, just checking the plugs will tell you what the problem is and where, dont start pulling your hair out over it stay calm take your time  8)
82' C90
87' yamaha T80
79' CB125T/CD200 project
82' CB650z
80s kawasaki ae50/150cc project
92' Suzuki GSXR600
80' CB250N

Offline LBM 550F

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2012, 12:44:40 pm »
How long did the engine run when first started? new rings on a rough hone surface will generate alot of heat very quickly. If they got too hot you may loose the tension on them. If you say the guides are good then I think you will need new rings, Good luck.
                                     L.
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2012, 01:22:47 pm »
if the heads coming off have a look at the guides again aswell.

Offline camelman

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2012, 01:44:40 pm »
I just watched your video and I stand by my earlier statement.  The issue you are having is excess fuel.  If you have too much fuel, or if it isn't atomized well, then it will come out as a white smoke/vapor on these small bore engines.  If it was oil-smoke, then it would be more blue.

The reason you see it more in lower gears than upper gears is because you open the throttle more in the upper gears than you do in the lower gears, which puts more load on the main jet circuits which seem to be operating well on your bike.  This points to your idle jets and/or mixture screw circuits being dirty, not set right, or just incorrect.

If I were you, I'd check the idle jets, passages and the mixture screws to make sure they are the correct size and clean.  With the mixture screws, you should make extra sure that the correct parts are in there.  It is common for incorrect parts to show up in there by POs and mechanics that really throw the system out of whack.  Blow carb cleaner or brakleen through the air circuits for each carb too.

The whining sound is mostly normal.  Your chain tensioner might be a little tight, but there's nothing wrong with the bike that I can hear.

One other possibility for poor combustion is incorrect timing and worn out ignition.  You might want to check your timing and mechanical advance too. 

I really don't think that you have a mechanical issue with your bike.  I'm sure your piston rings are sealing and I highly doubt your head gasket it bad. 

Camelman
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 01:46:20 pm by camelman »
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2012, 01:52:22 pm »
I just replaced the rings. Its not missing at all. It runs strong just burns oil. What kinda rings shoould i get?

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2012, 02:02:24 pm »
I just rebuilt carbs with all stock jets. Float heights are set to 23 with stock setting at 22. My mixture is backed out 7/8. Thats stock setting. Im running 4-1 exhaust with stock airbox. I dont think i have a jetting issue as i get alot of power through yhe whole range. Ill try to lean the mixture but ive either had oil coming out of my exhaust or condesation with carbon in it. I will admit after torqing the head the smoke does smell different. What would excess fuel smell like?

Offline camelman

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2012, 02:21:30 pm »
Excess fuel is easy to confuse with oil smoke smell, but I can't really describe it.  I will say that I was confused by it on my bike for a while, but with new pistons, rings and bores along with a rebuilt cylinder head with new valves and guides, I have realized that "oil smoke" smell was really excess fuel.  Did you pull your idle screws out to make sure the correct parts are in there?  I've seen random washers, o-rings, plastic thread and different springs show up in those assemblies which makes it hard to dial in the mixture just by setting each screw to the same number of turns.  Also, did you blow the air circuits clean when you rebuilt your carbs?  The air circuits can get clogged up easily.

One thing about starting super easy is that your bike really shouldn't.  It should need a little choke until it warms up.  Starting easily when cold is indicative of a rich mixture.  Since the bike starts up on the idle circuit, that points to the mixture screws and/or the idle jet setup being too rich.  FYI, the idle jets heavily affect idle on these engines.  Even your main jet is going to have a noticeable affect even at low amounts of throttle.  I've seen a few different graphs showing where the various carb circuits influence the mixture and I don't think most of those graphs are correct for the 350f and 400f carbs.  The 350f and 400f carbs are noticeably affected by each fuel circuit at all throttle positions, although each circuit definitely dominates at specific amounts of throttle.

Have you checked your mechanical advance on the timing to make sure it isn't frozen or sticky?

I don't think you should consider replacing your rings just yet.  If you honed the cylinder anywhere near to correctly, then those rings will seat in.  At this point you should be looking at your various controls (i.e. fuel ratios, timing, etc.)

Camelman

PS, there's a chance that you might need to jet down on your idle circuit.  Just putting a 4-1 on the bike doesn't automatically mean you have to jet up.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline ekpent

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2012, 02:34:18 pm »
I put together an RC836 engine years ago,still have it,but it was a major smoker and was not clearing up. When I took it back apart the oil scraper rings were upside down. Did it over correctly and it never smoked again. I know you said yours are in correctly but just relaying my smoker story.  ;)

Offline craywm

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Re: CB350F still smoking after 2 rebuilds... Ideas anyone? NEED HELP.
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2012, 02:46:00 pm »
I replaced the fuel mixture screw and springs with new ones (still have the old ones) think thats what could be happening from a new mixture screw? The bike was warm at that point in the video. I had just gotten back from a ride! But still comes to life quickly