Topic: rebuilding 550F carburators

[jason41987]

while im waiting on a new battery and plugs for my ignition system and electrics, i decided to pull the carburator and take a look at it.. and for the life of me i cant seem to get the throttle lever to move more than a couple of millimeters... its TIGHT.. so ive decided its probably best to rebuild the carbs, rather than simply clean them

so.. what would the best place to get a kit to rebuild all four carbs, also, where can i get new springs for the outside of the carb?... and before i put it back together... what would your recommendations be to cleaning up the metal on these? just clean and polish? or should i take it further?

[flybox1]

ultrasonic clean in simple green is a fast and effective way to get them clean.
no need to take them off the rack and separate them.  do one carb at a time. just remove the bowls, jets and emulsion tubes. clean them, put them back in the way they came out. spray carb cleaner and compressed air through all the passages
clean them well the first time. 

set the float heights, and do a bench sync.

the return spring is supposed to be tight.  its a safety feature.

[CoachDoc]

+1 on Simple Green in an ultrasonic cleaner. Reuse the original jets and needles whenever possible. I just replaced the rubber parts, cleaned everything else like a man possessed, and my carbs are like new.

[jason41987]

i dont have an ultrasonic cleaner... would a wire brush on a dremel be sufficient for cleaning off the rust?.. ill have to take them apart and clean them thoroughly right after i get some metric tools to do it with and after i get this bike running ill probably have the metal housing pieces powder coated

[matt mattison]

Got to the autoparts store and buy carb dip. It comes in a one gallon paint can and has a dipping basket. I would advise against the steel wire  brush on any cast aluminium parts. If you insist on the wire brush only use brass there. And you can also scrub the bodies down with #0000 steel wool if you wish. Chase all the passages with a guitar string and blow it out with compressed air. Re assemble.

[jason41987]

im going to try to find some reviews on "carb dip"... as for brushing to clean the carbs i was referring to the outside surfaces, to get the bits of surface rust off and make the carbs look like new as well

when i clean these, should i get a rebuild kit for them as well or not worry about it?... im just trying to get the engine to start, not concerned with how well it runs just yet

[Ausmithe]

Berrymans is a good brand of carb dip. Also, if you're going to pull your carbs for cleaning, check the rubber o-rings around your jets and especially on the T-connectors that you hook the gas lines to. Unless you know for sure that they were recently replaced, you'd be wise to have new ones on hand prior to pulling the rack.

[jason41987]

when i popped the float bowl off.. the inside was caked in white... not sure if carb cleaner would clean that out?

[CoachDoc]

I've used the Berryman's carb dip, and it does work. However, it is toxic as all getout so be sure to use some good nitrile gloves to prevent having it contact your skin, and make sure to work with EXELLENT ventilation to reduce your exposure to the vapors. BTW, Harbor Freight has decent U/S cleaners for very little $.

[jason41987]

harborfreight has an ultrasonic cleaner that is 5 1/2 x 8 x 5 inches... would this be enough for cleaning the carbs if i pop the plate off and clean them individually?.. then polish up the large plate with my dremel?

also, how concerned should i be by this white powdery.. crud?

[goldarrow]

ultrasonic clean in simple green is a fast and effective way to get them clean.
no need to take them off the rack and separate them.  do one carb at a time. just remove the bowls, jets and emulsion tubes. clean them, put them back in the way they came out. spray carb cleaner and compressed air through all the passages
clean them well the first time. 

set the float heights, and do a bench sync.

the return spring is supposed to be tight.  its a safety feature.

+1

+1 on Simple Green in an ultrasonic cleaner. Reuse the original jets and needles whenever possible. I just replaced the rubber parts, cleaned everything else like a man possessed, and my carbs are like new.

+1

Pine sol is also good to use.  Just let your carb soak overnight and will do just fine.  I don't have ultrasonic cleaner, not planning to get one either.

[jason41987]

i think if i was going to do this more often, id get an ultrasonic cleaner.. but this is a project im planning on taking all winter to complete.. so i have time to soak carbs overnight in cleaner... once i get this bike started theyll be taken back apart so i can powder coat the exterior metal surfaces

[matt mattison]

im going to try to find some reviews on "carb dip"... as for brushing to clean the carbs i was referring to the outside surfaces, to get the bits of surface rust off and make the carbs look like new as well

when i clean these, should i get a rebuild kit for them as well or not worry about it?... im just trying to get the engine to start, not concerned with how well it runs just yet

I'd buy the rebuild kit, do it once and do it right. I prefer the Honda parts, but others have success with aftermarket as well. Don't soak the carbs overnight, follow the instructions on the can.

[jason41987]

wheres the least expensive place to get a carb rebuild kit?... if im going to rebuild one i might as well do all four

[goldarrow]

wheres the least expensive place to get a carb rebuild kit?... if im going to rebuild one i might as well do all four

reuse the hardware, replace rubbers if necessary.  harborfreight o-rings, bikebandit, z1, or feebay to name a few....

[jason41987]

i seperated the carbs so theyd be easier to work with instead of moving this giant assembly of four around... also allowed me to get to the inlets where the gasoline flows into the carbs which was packed with this white crud, which seemed to have come from the fuel tank or the fuel itself, as it didnt really seem to be part of the metal, or corrosion, it just scraped away

anyway.. fully intending to replace the rubber bits, i used PB blaster and it really cleaned up this white stuff a lot... also freed up the frozen carburators and now all four carburators move freely, also, once some of this white crap was cleared away i was able to inspect the internal parts, all of which seem to be in good working order, and therefor a rebuild does not look necessary.... new gaskets and o-rings are necessary though

so... im going to get gasket material and cut my own gaskets for the top of the carbs, and managed to pry out one of the o-rings so i can take it to a local hardware store which has all of this stuff in bulk, so i can match the o-ring i have to new ones... probably take a couple of the screws in too to match them as well

im still thinking about finding some kind of dip to soak these carbs in because i still have some of the white stuff that refuses to go away, even though it doesnt seem to be part of a corossion process, atleast not nearly as bad as i thought it was... so i was wondering if the small $25 ultrasonic cleaner from harborfreight was enough to fit one of the seperated carbs?... and it would be nice to have something to drop various nuts and bolts into to bring them back to like new condition

in all.. im happy with the carbs, i think if i were to stick them on the bike now, and my ignition system was in order, the engine would start right up

so to really get the inside of these carbs into brand new condition, what would you recommend i do to clean the insides?... i can either soak them in something, get this ultrasonic cleaner, or do it manually with some sort of a brush or dremel bit.. so long as it wont harm the brass or aluminum?

[jason41987]

this hardware store sells everything, in metric and sae, ive purchased o-rings from them before... so im not worried about not finding what i need.. but out of curiosity, do you have a link to a place that sells those gasket kits?..

still though, i wont change any gaskets until i get the inside of that carb really clean, and get rid of the crud thats already in there.. im not sure i want to start running the engine and having bits of that stuff flake off and go into the cylinders

so.. im looking for a good recommendation on really getting the inside of it clean.. im starting to think i might have to take the manual approach with a dremel using a polishing wheel, or nylon brush.. but if theres something i can soak it in thatll do clean it all off, im all open to it

[jason41987]

im well aware of the different materials used and the chemical properties of those materials, they have the o-rings i need in the sizes i need them.. im more worried about getting the remaining crud out of the inside of the carburator first before i put in new o-rings

[jason41987]

does anyone have a photo of the inside of the carburetor with the float bowl removed?

[brewsky]

The "white stuff" is almost certainly zinc oxide.  The carb bodies are an alloy of various metals including Zinc.  So, the white stuff is corrosion, brought on from exposure to oxygen and water as catalyst.

Good luck on making bowl gaskets (they were originally really large orings, and finding metric orings that are fuel proof rather than water proof at the local hardware store would be a "special find".

Here's the Honda gasket set, which has everything you need for one carb.

What about the fiber or ?? washers that "seal" the choke and throttle shafts? I assume they are not in the kits? They are held in by dimpled retainers. They probably wouldn't hold up in a dunk in commercial carb cleaners?

Can/should they be replaced with o-rings?

[andrewk]

Unless you live next door to mcmaster carr, the hardware store will not have the o-rings you need.  Honda uses a lot of fractional (in between nominal sizes that a hardware store would carry) so you'll either be fiddlef*cking around with removing minute bits of rubber to get things to fit well, or you'll not have a seal at all which defeats the purpose.

Motorcycling isn't a cheap endeavor, unless you'd rather spend your time dicking with half-rebuild carbs that will never run right.

Gasket sets from honda can be had for ~12 bucks each.  Only includes the gaskets, if the needle valves are shot those are seperate parts.

These are things most people only learn from experience. You've got a wealth of information presented in front of you here, I would use it.

Good luck.

[Ausmithe]

+1 On using the Honda kit. I've used the cheap kits you'll find on eBay and they are very close, but just off enough to make it a huge pain in the butt to get that bowl gasket to fit. You can lay them side by side with the Honda bowl gasket and the difference is hard to notice but it's enough to cause problems. And that's just in reference to size. I don't want to imagine the headache if you end up with a gasket that starts breaking down on you because it's not fully suitable for use with petrol.

[jason41987]

i got some brass dremel brushes to remove the caked on white stuff... and im going to use the cheapest o-rings i can find to reassemble the carbs.. i dont care if these seals dont last long, i only need to verify the engine will start, at which point ill do a complete rebuild with all new springs, jets, needles, o-rings, gaskets, etc.. or another option im weighing is buy a set of new mikuni carbs

are the mikuni carbs any better than the stock carbs?.. if so, what makes them better, and do they deliver any performance boost or better fuel economy over the old ones?

[DEL]

Jason:
I haven't read every word of all the responses to your questions but I am concerned about dunking ( submerging) your carbs in carb cleaner. I will be rebuilding the carbs on my 1978 GL1000 soon and have purchased the gasket kits and "how to" video from Randall Washington - "Randakk" the GL1000 guru. He specifically warns about NOT dunking the carbs  in carb cleaner. This action will destroy the felts in the GL carbs as well as removing any of the factory finish left on the outside of the carb bodies. His suggestion is to disassemble and clean with brake cleaner and use very little actual carb cleaner and on only the small brass jets, tubes etc. I would imagine this would be good advice to follow with the 550 carbs as well.
Cheers,
David

[Duanob]

i got some brass dremel brushes to remove the caked on white stuff... and im going to use the cheapest o-rings i can find to reassemble the carbs.. i dont care if these seals dont last long, i only need to verify the engine will start, at which point ill do a complete rebuild with all new springs, jets, needles, o-rings, gaskets, etc.. or another option im weighing is buy a set of new mikuni carbs

are the mikuni carbs any better than the stock carbs?.. if so, what makes them better, and do they deliver any performance boost or better fuel economy over the old ones?

Hmmm you came here asking for advice from experienced members and now you're ignoring it. We've all been through this before. Buy the Honda kits and be done with it. Do you know for sure if the motor turns? If so then there is probably not a lot wrong with it that can't be fixed for fairly cheap. It might need a top end maybe even new rings, thats not the end of the world. Then you know what you got in the motor. But don't skimp now it will only cause you headaches later. Like I said we've all been there.

[brewsky]

What about the fiber or ?? washers that "seal" the choke and throttle shafts? I assume they are not in the kits? They are held in by dimpled retainers. They probably wouldn't hold up in a dunk in commercial carb cleaners?

Can/should they be replaced with o-rings?

Aren't these felt?  A compressed cotton?  (A material available at most fabric stores, if you've managed to destroy what was there.)  You'll need to make punches to create replacements.
Carb cleaners readily attack rubber and plastics made from petroleum products.  Are you claiming they attack cotton fiber (cellulose) as well.  I can't say I've tested that personally.

I don't see why a "dunk" is preferred.  I suppose it does seem "easier".  But, "dunking" is never a guarantee.  You still need to "prove" all the passageways, and it doesn't (shouldn't) remove corrosion anyway.  Corrosion is best removed mechanically rather than chemically (imo), unless your chemical prowess can select something that will dissolve corrosion deposits without dissolving the parent metal.

The felt is just a dust blocker to keep it out of the bearing surface.  I'm not sure how you would use an oring for an equivalent seal/block without creating some resistance to turning or leaving a gap for dust to bypass it.
Perhaps you are smarter than me. 

Cheers,

If I was that smart, I wouldn't be asking questions!

I've used the carb dip cans with success, but never with plastic slide guides, o-rings attached, or felt washers in place etc., for fear of destroying them in the process.

In those cases, I resorted to other home brews like vinegar, Pine Sol, Simple Green etc., but would prefer to use a cleaner that is designed for the use. Regardless of which method, I always blow out the passages with carb spray and compressed air as the final touch.

I was curious what others do with the felt washers in the cleaning process and whether they will stand up to the Berrymans dip. I have never seen a part number for them and don't know for sure if they are included in any of the Honda rebuild kits or not.

I do know they stand up ok to the household home brews mentioned.

Further inspection of the PD46C's I'm getting ready to clean reveal there are both o-rings and felt washers used in the rack. Felt is used in the #1 and #4 carbs, and o-rings are used in #2 and #3 carbs. This is true of both the throttle and choke shafts?
I didn't realize this until I started poking them with a pick!

[jason41987]

well, ive taken one of the more crusty looking carbs and took the brass brush to it.. and now the inside of that carb looks brand new, very little erosion at all, nothing that couldnt be buffed out... two of the other carburators look pretty good as well and only had very light crust on it.. the fourth one had a bit of erosion at the top of the post for the jet... but not enough to risk the jet falling out should i get leaf springs for these

which brings me to another point, none of these carbs had springs in them... so im following a tutorial i found on here using an old hacksaw blade to bend into the shape of new springs to hold the jet in place...

im curious though... what is included in an o-ring kit that is not included in a carb rebuild kit?, seems the only o-rings i might be missing is the one for the T joint for the fuel.. after noticing what a surprisingly good condition these carbs seem to be in, i think ill rebuild them with new jets, and should i not be able to get the engine running, atleast i can re-sell the freshly rebuilt carbs online at a pretty decent price...

so, whats included in the o-ring kit that i cant get in the carb rebuild kits, which include o-rings for the bowl and the various jets?

[matt mattison]

I was curious what others do with the felt washers in the cleaning process and whether they will stand up to the Berrymans dip. I have never seen a part number for them and don't know for sure if they are included in any of the Honda rebuild kits or not.

I do know they stand up ok to the household home brews mentioned.

I actually soaked the felt washers in the berrymans dip by accident. They came out unscathed . I wouldnt recommend doing this, but I'm just saying. I also only soaked the carbs for about 20 min. Then scrubbed them clean, inside and out, chased the orifices with a wire, sprayed carb cleaned through the orifices and blew compressed air.

[jason41987]

twotired, honestly, if youre going to complain like a little girl because you havent been fully paying attention to the fact that im looking to get the carbs working temporarily at first at as low of a cost as possible to verify the engine itself even runs, then please, dont post any any of my threads anymore and reserve this for someone who actually reads... im not willing to dump enormous amounts of money into a bike if i cant first verify that itll run... i dont care if it runs rough, i dont care if it doesnt run as efficiently as it could, all that i care about right now is that i can get it to run at all

[jason41987]

anyway.. i dont shop on ebay anymore... not after some issues ive had with them, and different sellers on there... so, i try to find other places to buy things... i found a website called www.partsnmore.com that sells complete carb rebuild kits for about $14/each... anyone try these? are they the same rebuild kids as the others floating around online?

[andrewk]

If you want to verify that it "will run" take the carbs off, spray carb cleaner straight into the intake, and try to start the bike.

Or, you could verify it's mechanical condition with a series of tests- compression, leakdown, ignition.  You can rent the tools for free at an autoparts store.

Honestly, the difference between "temporarily getting the carbs working" versus actually getting the carbs to work is not much.  You're only going to be doing it twice, which isn't going to save you money, time, or energy.  Rebuild the GD things right the first time and ride the bike!

www.servicehonda.com is the cheapest place you'll find OEM parts. Shipping is usually more than I'd like to to be, but I don't have to go anywhere, and they come right to my door.

Again, a quick test to see if an engine will run would be to spray carb cleaner straight down the intakes and then try to start the bike.  won't run long on that, but you'll hear it run to satisfy whatever it is in your head that makes you want to half-ass it.

[jason41987]

i have most the white stuff removed from the carbs manually with brass brushes.. im curious that.. what should i use in the various passage ways to remove the remaining white crud?.. ive heard of pine sol, CLR... would any of these get rid of the white stuff in the places i cant reach with a brush if i were to soak it?.. im replacing all the o-rings anyway since theyre all bad... so what should i soak these in to get the rest out?

[jason41987]

carbs are CLEAN now... i was told by some people to soak them in this, or soak them in that.. but i managed to get all the white crud off manually with a variety of brass dremel brushes... the small passage ways in the carbs i was able to scrape clean by using a piece of soft soldering wire...

so all passages are clean, the white stuff is about 99% gone, no blockages, everything moving freely now... all i need to do now is wait for my new o-rings to arrive so i can reassmble them... mixing some seafoam with the fuel should take care of the rest but as far as im concerned im done with these things now... all thats left is a reassembly

when cleaning them, i noticed the passage way going from the fuel inlet through the little float needle piece was completely blocked on three of the carbs... most likely why this bike hasnt ran in years.. but thats taken care of as well

it feels good to be done with that pain in the rear of a project

[Browneye]

I just picked up an inherited CB550F and also wanted to have an idea if it would run before I stripped the whole bike down for rebuilding.

I went thru the carbs as you mention, pulled the bowls and cleaned out the fuel residue (sitting for 30+ years). Only one of them had a spring to hold the main jet, the last carb. So the other ones were reassembled without one, held in by their o-rings which were fine. Only one had a split bowl gasket and since didn't have one just put it back in and reassembled. Guess what? It doesn't leak. And none of the float needles leak. Rodded the jets and blew them out, did a cursory cleaning of the exterior, some WD40, and put them back on.

Changed the oil and filter, dropped the pan, took a look, motor turns over easily. Put some fuel in, borrowed a battery from another bike, and it started right up. Ran pretty good too. Charging system fine, starter fine. So now I know I just need to replace the primary chain, will do the cam chain, inspect everything, top end, etc. and I'll have a good runner.

The white residue is from modern fuels. If left in the carbs it will evaporate out and leave the white powder. It can be difficult to remove, and will plug pilot jets solid. Definitely drain the bowls if it's going to sit for more than a couple of weeks.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

My new thread here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112578.0