Author Topic: Charging system woes  (Read 7858 times)

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Offline fmctm1sw

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Charging system woes
« on: September 17, 2012, 06:39:39 AM »
So just as I was about to ride my CT90 around in my backyard, it wouldn't start because of a dead battery.  I got to looking around and it appears my rectifier is toast.  So ut that aside and look at my 350F which was running very strangely the last time I rode it.  Checked the charging output, found right around 13VDC max.  I tried a good spare regulator which made no difference.  Here's the summary:  Rectifier tested ok.  Field coil was at 5.0 ohms.  I had .8 to 1.0 ohms on the yellow leads from the stator.  None were shorted to ground.  Now I'm stuck, I've pretty much done all the static tests I can.  Those yellow leads shoud have been about .6 to .7 ohms per the manual but is less than half an ohm going to make or break my charging system?  Failing all that, I set the regulator gaps up according to the manual too.  Bent the little arm around and still nothing.  I'm going to try a dynamic output test again on the yellow wires.  The first time I tried it, my meter kept bouncing around too much to even tell (highest setting).  I'm pretty sure I have spare 350/400F parts but I really don't want to "easter egg" this.  Does anyone have any more ideas?
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline strynboen

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 07:11:00 AM »
only test when the battery are full loadet...and then turn light on/off..to see if it can hold  12/13 volt....

honda el system test 016
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 11:22:41 AM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
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Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 09:39:21 AM »
I forgot to mention, the battery was jumped to my truck.  Fully charged.  My light was always off when testing.  I've been educating myself on "permanent magnet" vs "electromagnet" charging systems.  Hopefully a better understanding of those things will help me with it.
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline strynboen

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 10:51:08 AM »
if it can hold 12-14 volt vith light on..its ok..it are not pumping power if the voltage er  ok ,high ..only on load..so put the light on and test
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline phil71

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 11:37:32 AM »
I'm confused, are you trying to fix the 90, or the 350?

If we're troubleshooting a ct 90, it's important to note that that bike will run with no battery.. You'll blow every bulb on it, but it'll run. Also, most ct90s were 6 volt.
  If you jumped it to a car, you blew the diodes up, and good.
A few things to note, the CT 90 has NO REGULATOR. The battery serves to do a vague job of regulating voltage. With no battery, that stator will put out in excess of 14 volts, and anything above 8 will pop all the bulbs pretty quick.
  Get a rectifier from a 6 volt bike, or build one from a radio shack  CT 90 Rectifier Upgrade
 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 12:53:56 PM by phil71 »

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 12:17:00 PM »
I'm confused, are you trying to fix the 90, or the 350?

If we're troubleshooting a ct 90, it's important to note that that bike will run with no battery.. You'll blow every bulb on it, but it'll run. Also, most ct90s were 6 volt.
  If you jumped it to a car, you blew the diodes up, and good.
A few things to note, the CT 90 has NO REGULATOR. The battery serves to do a vague job of regulating voltage. With no battery, that stator will put out in excess of 14 volts, and anything above 8 will pop all the bulbs pretty quick.
  Get a regulator from a 6 volt bike, or build one from a radio shack  CT 90 Rectifier Upgrade
 

Both unfortunately.  I used the CT90 lead in just because I'm starting to think I'm jinxed with charging systems right now.  Yeah, my CT90 is 6 volts, brand new battery too.  Definitely did NOT hook that up to my truck.  I'll get to it after I solve my 350F.  I may go the Radio shack route.  I've read about retifiers being designed by us DIYers.  thanks...
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 08:36:57 AM »
Went through the charging system again, still stumped.  Rectifier certainly good and stator ohm'd out ok.  I put another stator in it I have around, still no change.  I tried an output (between the yellow leads) test but my multimeter goes crazy the minute I touch one of the leads to a yellow wire.  At this point, I'm tired of fighting with cheap instruments and bought a Fluke off eBay.  I'll continue when I get it. 
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 10:14:44 AM »
If you want to test the yellow output you need to test between pairs of yellow wires with the meter set to AC volts(about 45 from memory). Somewhere on the site is an explanation of how the three phase charging system works and how to adjust it, i know it's there somewhere as i sent it to glen from a honda bulletin.

EDIT,

link to explanation
http://www.sohc4.net/index.php/hsbsl9062571-three-phasechargingsystem/

How to set and test the reg is in the workshop manual for either the 750 or 500, dont know about 350 as i havent got that one due to it never came to UK
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 10:18:38 AM by bryanj »
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 10:40:31 AM »
If you want to test the yellow output you need to test between pairs of yellow wires with the meter set to AC volts(about 45 from memory). Somewhere on the site is an explanation of how the three phase charging system works and how to adjust it, i know it's there somewhere as i sent it to glen from a honda bulletin.

EDIT,

link to explanation
http://www.sohc4.net/index.php/hsbsl9062571-three-phasechargingsystem/

How to set and test the reg is in the workshop manual for either the 750 or 500, dont know about 350 as i havent got that one due to it never came to UK

Yeah, I have that bulletin printed out in a document protector in my book, good stuff.  My 350f manual has all the static tests in there, the only thing I can find out of whack is that the yellow leads have around 1 ohm between them in stead of .6 to .7 ohms.  I used that Electrix (sp?) charging system guide too.  Nothing found.  I think that output test is going to be the key but I don't think my meter is operating correctly.  I did notice my regulator energizes when you turn the key on and it never moves after that.  I think I just need to step away from it for a few days.   ???
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 11:29:17 AM »
You have to test charging systems with a known good and fully charged 12V battery.
Measure the battery voltage after a 2 hr rest from the charger.  Report.


Reason: Good batteries neither deplete nor charge rapidly (this property is what makes them useful).  So, voltage measurements are dominated by battery state of charge.  If the battery isn't fully charged, it will suck down any peak voltages your charging system is capable producing due to load factors.  EG, a fully functioning charging system may only reach 13V during a charge of a depleted battery (regardless of capacity).  The voltage will slowly trend upward, and the 350F charging system will take up to 10 hours @ 5000 RPM to peak charge its standard battery if depleted.

You must know state of battery charge before diagnosing charging systems.  If you have "jumped" batteries connected in parallel, all the batteries have to be peak charged to attain a 14.5 V level.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 11:41:21 AM »
TT that is the best testing regime i have ever seen printed out Mate, clear and concise with all the known faults.

Only other test i have ever done as a quick output check is the AC volts at the three yellow pairs as it can be done with everything connected and does not rely on a meter accurate at low reistances
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 11:46:37 AM »
Thanks TT.  I've done most of those static tests on the individual componenets but the battery was not in a good state of charge.  It was just jumped to my truck.  I'll wait on my new meter before I get back into it but that's definitely going to give me some direction.
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 11:48:26 AM »
TT that is the best testing regime i have ever seen printed out Mate, clear and concise with all the known faults.
Thanks Bryan!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 11:52:48 AM »
Thanks TT.  I've done most of those static tests on the individual componenets but the battery was not in a good state of charge.  It was just jumped to my truck. 

...which made the state of charge of both the truck and bike battery dominate the voltage measurements.  In other words, you can't tell if the charging system is faulty, causing low readings, or if the batteries were in a transient charge state and there was no charging system problem at all.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2012, 04:33:15 PM »
Well, back again with a decent Fluke multimeter.  Battery charged up and was at 12.44 when I started testing.  Started it up and at idle with the headlight on, I had 11.64 at the battery.  2000RPM, 3000RPM same thing.  I went right back to the yellow leads on the stator.  I disconnected it right where it comes out from top of the sprocket cover.  All read .8 to 1 ohms resistance.  No A/C voltage between any of them with the bike running.  Went back and put the original stator back in it.  Same thing.  Revving the engine will get you about 1.5 VAC max between them.  I tried it at the (disconnected) connector to the rectifier too.  Nothing.  So it appears I have two completely dead stators.  The rotor is just a hunk of metal right?  I do have one more stator I guess I'll try over the weekend.    ???
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 04:45:00 PM »
The stator won't make any output voltage if the field coil isn't making a magnetic field.  Check the voltage going to it.

I know people like to jump ahead and take short cuts.  But, I wrote a procedure that makes a foundation upon which to build on, and goes from there validating each part of the system.

It is very rare that stators fail on their own.  Of course, if they are physically damaged by crash or axe wielder, that can do it too.  I think you a jumping to a false conclusion.

They are just wires.  You measured continuity between leads?  You measured continuity to the engine case?

A fully charged and rested battery should have at least 12.6V in it.  Less that that and it is either under charged or faulty.

I guess you didn't like my procedural write up.  So, I'm done here.  Good luck with your part substitution method!

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 05:41:40 PM »
What you seem to be missing is measuring the field coil resistance and voltage. What you describe could be a failed stator, this is a rare fault though. Yes, the rotor is just a lump of metal. Non magnetized metal. To make electricity, it bends the field coil magnetic field into alternating N and S poles around its outside. When the rotor spins, these alternating poles create the electricity in the stator coils. No field coil magnetic field equals no electricity output. I've measured alternators with the field disconnected, just curious whether there was any residual magnetism in the rotor. Not much: very close to zero volts from the stator.
Only if you measure the right resistance on the field coil and see battery voltage on its wires, would I believe the stator has failed. I would measure the field coil current as well first though, it should be around 2 amps on a 750. There are connector and wire problems (unusual) that can measure good resistance at very low current (ie when measured with an ohmmeter) but become high resistance when power is applied.

Offline fmctm1sw

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Re: Charging system woes
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 07:58:20 PM »
Thanks, I had measured the field coil already as mentioned in my first post.  I basically followed the electrosport charging system guide:  guide http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf  Other than the part saying I have a "permanent magnet system," I thought it was pretty spot on.  I went though the rectifier, field coil and stator static tests right at the start.  Adjusted the voltage regulator as described in the HSM too.  I was hoping to just zero in on something tonight quick but it looks like I'm waiting for the weekend now.
Quote from: 754
Dude is that a tire ? or an O-ring..??

Quote from: inkscars
This is not a pod thread
This is not a #$%* on my vacuum gauges thread
This is a help or GTFO thread.

1973 CB350F
1973 CB350G
1975 CB550K
1983 GL650I
1973 CB750K3 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=92888.0)
1984 Kawasaki KLT-250 (AKA 3 wheeler of death)
1994 Honda TRX300
1999 Honda TRX250

Offline thrutheframe

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Charging system woes
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2012, 02:20:01 AM »
+1 for TT's method.  Very well written and thought out.
'74 cb 750 K4
'79 CB 650 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83981.0
'75 CB 360T
'90 RC31 Hawk GT