Author Topic: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences  (Read 18098 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« on: September 29, 2012, 01:52:53 PM »
So my need for a new spark advancer has led me to create this thread. Can anybody shed some light on the differences between all the advancers? There seem to be different numbers like 300, 323, 333, just to name a few.  Honda oddly enough lists the SAME part number for every year on a CB750 but yet there are some obvious differences throughout the years, not only with the number but they look different as well. Hondaman briefly covers this in his book but not enough to answer any questions.


If anybody with a 77-78 F model CB750 can confirm exactly which one to use I would appreciate it, especially if you had one to sell.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113292.0

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,469
  • Central Texas
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2012, 02:24:59 PM »
Good question, tagging along to find out as well.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2012, 02:28:30 PM »
Should post that list on here, it will help ID some of mine. I may have 78f one if you cannot find.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2012, 06:13:03 PM »
Here is the list 754 mentioned


I have no idea where this came from or if its accurate. I think it has something to do with the dash numbers in the Honda part numbering system.


300     CB750.K1
323     CB500-K2
333     CB350FOUR
363     CB40FOUR
374     CB550K1-P
377     CB400.F-F2
390     CB550F.1.2
392     CB750F.1.P
393     CB750AT-A2
404     CB550K3-P3
405     CB750K7-P7
410     CB750F2.F3
425     CB750KZ-CA
426     CB650Z.PZ
445     CB750FZ.FA
460     CB650A.CA

CB750
300     CB750.K1
392     CB750F.1.P
393     CB750AT-A2
405     CB750K7-P7
410     CB750F2.F3
425     CB750KZ-CA
445     CB750FZ.FA

« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 06:17:27 PM by brandEn »

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,469
  • Central Texas
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 07:06:31 PM »
I don't see 750 K2-K6? CB750KZ-CA...Cali?? 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline grumpy

  • HUH?!?! ME!?!? I'm not a freakin
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,358
  • ..... '73 750K3 .....
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2012, 07:11:21 PM »
Ask Hondman

He has a write up in his book.


Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2012, 07:18:07 PM »
Ask Hondman

He has a write up in his book.



Yea I mentioned that in the first post. He doesn't go into any details about the 77-78 F2-F3 model advancers in his book unfortunately.

Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2012, 07:20:59 PM »
I don't see 750 K2-K6? CB750KZ-CA...Cali?? 

You got me... I don't know anything about that list :P

Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2012, 07:52:43 PM »
Here are a couple pictures.


300 CB750 spark advancer





323 CB750 spark advancer





Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,064
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2012, 10:35:55 PM »
The K0-K5 versions are covered in the Appendix G of the book, but the post-1975 stuff was removed when the book was shrunk to 268 pages (for cost reasons) and the later bikes left out (removed almost 60 pages). The details in terms of how the bikes are built are minor, but in tuning, there are some differences.

The F0/F1/K7/K8 spark advancers have 10 degrees static advance on their "F" marks, and 23.5 degrees advance angle (published), for a total of 33.5 degrees. The F2/3 bikes have the same static, but 26.5 degrees advance (published) angle, total of 36.5 degrees.

I say 'published', as I haven't measured them myself, like I did the earlier bikes. I fully suspect these figures vary by as much as 2 degrees from bike-to-bike, which was typical of the production tolerances of the day.  :)

The post-1975 bikes had to cope with new EPA restrictions at 2500 RPM, so their spark advancers have slower advance curves (bigger springs and/or lighter weights) than the earlier ones, which gives them a little bit of a flat feeling in the sub-4000 RPM range, compared to the earlier bikes (along with the later cam opening).

In comparison, the K0 started out with 41 degrees total advance angle, all-in by 2100 RPM when new! The K1 at least held off on the RPM, to about 2500 or so, making the launch a little less sudden. After the heat-annealing of the springs, the K0/K1 could reach full advance by 1500 RPM, causing plug fouling issues from the spitback into the carb throats. This is one reason why I [still] recommend cutting 1/2 turn off those springs, today, to slow it down a little bit.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,153
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 01:33:59 AM »
That 323 advancer whilst it might have been taken from a 750 is actualy a 500/550 one
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2012, 03:21:04 PM »
Thanks for all the info HM.

Is it possible to modify an advancer to work with my F? I was thinking maybe bending the tabs outward (on my "300" advancer) a bit? But then how would I measure how far to bend them?

bollingball

  • Guest
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2012, 03:40:02 PM »
Hey Mark Make a copy of those pages that were cut out for us 77-78 guys. I would be glad to pay for them. Even if it is hand written would be a good addition to my book for my K8. I think a lot of us guys would pay.
Ken

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2012, 06:36:17 PM »
 Big surpise, pulled one off a 78 f today, marked 300, checked another 77 or 78 F, last 2 digits were 00.
 Also found an AD125-01..actually 2 of those? what are they?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,064
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2012, 08:25:10 PM »
Hey Mark Make a copy of those pages that were cut out for us 77-78 guys. I would be glad to pay for them. Even if it is hand written would be a good addition to my book for my K8. I think a lot of us guys would pay.
Ken

It's going into the next book. It's a shorter, less expensive one, covering just performance stuff. The first one was about resurrecting them to ride, the next one is more about hopping things up. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cougar

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 409
  • Stamping Ground, Kentucky U.S.A.
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2012, 08:44:56 PM »
Hey Hondaman ; Any projected publish date yet on the HOP UP  ;D book ?  Mmm Subscribed to this thread !     ...cougar...
I'm not prejudice, I'll weld anything that pays! Knowledge that is shared is Never Lost!!   Right is right, wrong is wrong! The truth is the truth and a lie is a lie! DEAL WITH IT ACCORDINGLY !!!   I HATE "DIAL-UP"

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,064
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2012, 09:00:21 PM »
Thanks for all the info HM.

Is it possible to modify an advancer to work with my F? I was thinking maybe bending the tabs outward (on my "300" advancer) a bit? But then how would I measure how far to bend them?

Any of them will fit any of the bikes, and will run OK. That was one of Honda's hallmarks, which was that any later bike could accept earlier parts, and vice-versa. In a few places, this didn't work well (K0, mostly), but after K1 pretty much all can interchange, given that the whole related section goes with it.

Performance can vary, though, depending on tuning. If you put the early spark advancer in the late engine, the advance rate will be faster than the late engines' original setup. This leads to flat spots, even plug fouling problems, unless you either alter the advance rate (slow it down) or modify the carb settings accordingly. First things first: make sure the bike starts and idles well, then check the throttle-snap performance after warmup. It should be crisp, and the speed should settle down quickly when the throttle is released. If it is too slow to advance the timing, the throttle snap may feel sluggish: if too fast, the engine will back-spit and pop. Total advance on the various years changed a little (downward with time) because the US was struggling to have enough gas, and premium was downright hard to find in 1973-1975, right when the later bikes were being designed. Honda made sure the bikes up thru F1 would run on Regular, while the improved HP bikes of '77-'78 needed more octane again, as the US recovered. Still, the F2/3 engines did not have a lot of total advance, compared to the K0/K1, or even K2.

The K0/K1/K2/K3 advancers were much quicker than the post-1975 bikes that had to meet emissions tests at 2500 RPM, so those later bikes had stronger springs to delay the advance. If the faster-advance spring (or advancer) is installed in a bike with PD carbs, make sure the accelerator pump works, or it will fall on its face with a handful of throttle at 2000 RPM. This is due to spitting back into the carbs during overlap, from the waste-spark cycle being too advanced. It will then need a dose of gas to launch, which will extinguish the back-spit and wet the valve(s) again. Also, raise the needle in the slides, or increase the mainjet by a 5 size, or the bike will feel 'buzzy' as it will be lean enough to act like it is trying to ping, for the extra amount of advance it has at the lower speed. Advancing the cam timing about 3-5 degrees in the later engines will help reduce both of the problems, though, giving those bikes noticeably more midrange torque.

So, go ahead and fit it in, then you can tinker with the rest of the stuff to make it smooth. If you decide you need more total advance, you can just twist the points plate to get it, thus raising the idle timing, too. If taken too far, the engine will not throttle down crisply, which is your tip-off that the static advance is too long.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,817
  • Northern Virginia
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2012, 05:35:10 AM »
Subscribed.
Prokop
_______________
Pure Gas - find ethanol free gas station near you

I love it when parts come together.

Dorothy - my CB750
CB750K3F - The Red
Sidecar


CB900C

2006 KLR650

Offline Old Scrambler

  • My CB750K3 has been in 39 States & 5 Provinces
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,813
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2012, 07:08:07 AM »
Very Good Thread................Now to dial-in my Megacycle cam on my K5 motor installed in a F2 framed cafe project............this info is very timely :) ;) ;) ;)
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
'63 CL72 Project(s)
'66 CL77 Red
'67 Triumph T100C
'73 750K3 Owned since New
'77 750F2 Cafe Project
2020 ROYAL ENFIELD Himalayan

Offline brandEn

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,203
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2012, 07:55:31 AM »
Mark, thanks again for another awesomely detailed post!

Offline stockscreamer

  • 8 valves + 4 pistons + 2 wheels = 1 happy guy.
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 83
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2012, 02:30:11 PM »
I started a thread along the same question a while back with no replies.. If im understanding Hondaman correctly i can put weaker/softer springs on my K5's advancer to quicken the advance rate? If so are there softer springs available specifically for our advancers or will i have to find a "custom" set? And last but not least will i have to fiddle with the carbs a whole lot with my year? (I cant for the life of me remember or find what model my carbs are i have my rack as my avatar if that helps identify them)

Thanks, Josh
P.S. Hondaman your username fits you VERY well. ;)
There are no absolute truths. The truth of a theory is merely its power to produce predictions that are confirmed by observations.

bollingball

  • Guest
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2012, 03:23:24 PM »
Well they are not PDs ;D

Offline stockscreamer

  • 8 valves + 4 pistons + 2 wheels = 1 happy guy.
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 83
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2012, 03:42:05 PM »
Yessir i know, Just like to know what if anything will need to be tweaked before going ahead and doing it. If it affects PD's i kind of presumed it might have some sort of adverse affect with mine too.. I actually enjoy tuning with my carbs cause they're stupid simple, so its no problem if it needs changes would simply like to know what i would be getting into.

Josh
There are no absolute truths. The truth of a theory is merely its power to produce predictions that are confirmed by observations.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,064
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2012, 11:53:08 PM »
I started a thread along the same question a while back with no replies.. If im understanding Hondaman correctly i can put weaker/softer springs on my K5's advancer to quicken the advance rate? If so are there softer springs available specifically for our advancers or will i have to find a "custom" set? And last but not least will i have to fiddle with the carbs a whole lot with my year? (I cant for the life of me remember or find what model my carbs are i have my rack as my avatar if that helps identify them)

Thanks, Josh
P.S. Hondaman your username fits you VERY well. ;)

I'd be willing to bet $5 that you DON'T want a faster advance rate. These springs are all heat-annealed now, so they mostly advance too fast already, causing a flat spot sensation below 5000 RPM on many of the bikes. Rather, cut off 1/2 turn from the springs and bend their ends into a loop to fit. If you want to do it in little steps, just do one spring first, then the other. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Prospect

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,171
Re: CB750 Spark Advancers = what are the differences
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 08:14:10 AM »
I'd be willing to bet $5 that you DON'T want a faster advance rate. These springs are all heat-annealed now, so they mostly advance too fast already, causing a flat spot sensation below 5000 RPM on many of the bikes. Rather, cut off 1/2 turn from the springs and bend their ends into a loop to fit. If you want to do it in little steps, just do one spring first, then the other. ;)

I did that to one of my bikes.  I noticed a considerable difference. 
Current Bikes

1969 CB750  Sandcast #256
1971 CB750K1
1972 CB750K1
1975 CB400F
1975 GL1000 Goldwing
1954 Harley Davidson Panhead
1957 Harley Davidson Panhead

Toronto Canada