Author Topic: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..  (Read 5812 times)

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Offline lostmykeys

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2012, 08:39:48 PM »
 Two tired,What you said makes perfect sense but I have a question.
 I live within five miles of a world class racetrack that sells racing fuel to those who want it and I have noticed I get more torque while going up mountains at low RPM's with my wife on the back when I mix the racing fuel in my tank.The bike also pulls harder in the upper rev range and runs smoother and cooler.
 This is something even my wife notices and she does't know that I spent the money on the fuel.
 I just tell her I tuned it up instead of lettin her know I went to the race track and bought some really expensive gas.
 My house is at 5000 feet and in a dry climate some of my rides I go up to 11000 feet with snow in july and my wife on the back.
 It's like the difference in a hot day verses a cool humid night.
 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2012, 09:59:36 PM »
Measured/measurable data, or it didn't happen.

Sorry, human "feelings" are never calibrated to the laws of physics.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline lostmykeys

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2012, 10:40:57 PM »
 Two tired,I thought you might say something to that effect.
 But remember some of us fly by the seat of our pants and because of that,we may be more in touch with our machines.
 Hey,you have alot of clout on this forum and I applaud you for that!
 The point is this,I know my bike runs better with a mix of racing fuel in the tank,I'ts too obvious to ignore.
 If I just want to ride the bike with regular pump fuel in the tank,I tend to take it easy on the old girl and just ride it like the old bike it is.
 If I put high octane fuel in the tank she begs me to twist the trottle and hang on...makes less noise and runs cooler and gives me quicker throtle response.
 All I'm saying is this....I have accsess to high octane racing fuel and my ass wants to fly off the back of my bike when I forget that I put it in the tank.
 Not to mention the added tourqe and quieter overall running of the machine and cooler temps.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2012, 11:18:02 PM »
Had a friend who lived in Mass not far from the northrn border and worked in southern New Hampshire. One of his son's had a science project he ran with his dad as the guinea pig. George drove a 1965 Volvo 122S 2-door to work  daily, he is a Volvo dealer Parts Manager.
Well, they ran controlled tests one spring after the weather turned nice. They filled the tank up 2 or 3 times with each grade of gasoline, 87, 89, and 91 and they used the same station for all fillups? The car was equipped with a 2.0L gas motor with dual SU HS6 carbs in good condition and properly tuned and jetted. The best gas mileage was obtained by 87 octane. The driving habits were attempted to be consistent as well as the type of trips and usage from tank to tank. The best performance was obtained over a timed measured course for performance as being from the 91 octane.
No adjustments or component changes were made to the carburetors or engine during the test period and air pressures were maintained at a steady setting. Car was tuned up with fresh spark plugs, oil/oil filter, and air filters at the beginning of the test.

So, there findings were valid for normally aspirated carbureted cars
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2012, 12:30:06 AM »
Had a friend who lived in Mass not far from the northrn border and worked in southern New Hampshire. One of his son's had a science project he ran with his dad as the guinea pig. George drove a 1965 Volvo 122S 2-door to work  daily, he is a Volvo dealer Parts Manager.
Well, they ran controlled tests one spring after the weather turned nice. They filled the tank up 2 or 3 times with each grade of gasoline, 87, 89, and 91 and they used the same station for all fillups? The car was equipped with a 2.0L gas motor with dual SU HS6 carbs in good condition and properly tuned and jetted. The best gas mileage was obtained by 87 octane. The driving habits were attempted to be consistent as well as the type of trips and usage from tank to tank. The best performance was obtained over a timed measured course for performance as being from the 91 octane.
No adjustments or component changes were made to the carburetors or engine during the test period and air pressures were maintained at a steady setting. Car was tuned up with fresh spark plugs, oil/oil filter, and air filters at the beginning of the test.

So, there findings were valid for normally aspirated carbureted cars

Could be, I suppose.  But, I maintain skepticism. It is still a story with no data to support or scrutinize for test replication.  A test case of one may be encouraging, but it must be corroborated to be excepted as any sort of proof.  Further, it doesn't seem like it was a double blind type test.  Like, was the operator aware of the octane used during each test, or put another way, was the human factor eliminated from the physical data collection.  I note the absence of temperature, humidity, or barometric pressure, accountability, all of which can change the engine's power output on any given day, and certainly over the span of a "spring".
"Best gas mileage" is not a number or even a range of numbers best to worst.  Similarly, why are there no numbers for best performance ,or what the range of performance was?
For example was the best performance .00001% better than worst performance?  Was best gas mileage .00001% better than worst gas mileage?  Were statistical anomalies account for?

Further, station gas can be variable sample to sample even from the same station, and I see no "controls" for gas selection quality or adherence to standards.  Did the station not refill its tanks during the entire spring?  In some areas of the country, winter gas is blended differently than summer gas.  Did the "test" span this transition?  Was the blend even monitored during the span of testing?

Lastly, there are no explanations or rationale presented for why the results obtained don't fit the model for combustion efficiency or power.  The conclusion that octane increased power has no supportive explanation other than "faith" that it did.  Unfortunately, faith is not a physical measurable factor.
Just how did the engine make more power with the same energy content in each fuel used?

The ignition speed varies with the octane rating.  This is why engines that are prone to ping are aided by retarding the spark.  So, ignition timing is optimally selected for the fuel being used.  A test that varies octane but keeps the ignition timing constant is not a valid test because it is unknown which fuel the test engine's timing was optimized to use.

Please note that adding ethanol to gasoline increases it octane rating, but lowers it's total energy content.

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

Effects of octane rating

Higher octane ratings correlate to higher activation energies: This being the amount of applied energy required to initiate combustion. Since higher octane fuels have higher activation energy requirements, it is less likely that a given compression will cause uncontrolled ignition, otherwise known as autoignition or detonation.

The compression ratio is directly related to power and to thermodynamic efficiency of an internal combustion engine (see Otto-cycle). Engines with higher compression ratios develop more area under the Otto-Cycle curve, thus they extract more energy from a given quantity of fuel.

During the compression stroke of an internal combustion engine, as the air / fuels mix is compressed its temperature rises (PV=nRT).

A fuel with a higher octane rating is less prone to auto-ignition and can withstand a greater rise in temperature during the compression stroke of an internal combustion engine without auto-igniting, thus allowing more power to be extracted from the Otto-Cycle.

If during the compression stroke the air / fuel mix reaches a temperature greater than the auto-ignition temperature of the fuel, the fuel self or auto-ignites. When auto-ignition occurs (before the piston reaches the top of its travel) the up-rising piston is then attempting to squeeze the rapidly expanding (exploding) fuel charge. This will usually destroy an engine quickly if allowed to continue.

There are two types of induction systems on internal combustion engines. Normally aspirated engine (air is sucked in using the engines pistons. Or, forced induction engines (See supercharger|supercharged or turbocharger|turbocharged engines).

In the case of the normally aspirated engine, at the start of the compression stroke the cylinder air / fuel volume is very low, this translates into a low starting pressure. As the piston travels upward, a compression ratio of 10:1 in a normally aspirated engine will most likely not start auto-ignition. But 11:1 may. In a forced induction engine where at the start of the compression stroke the cylinder pressure is already raised (having a greater volume of air / fuel) Exp. 2 Bar (14.7Psi), the starting pressure or air / fuel volume would be 2 times that of the normally aspirated engine. This would translate into an effective compression ratio of 20:1 vs. 10:1 for the normally aspirated. This is why many forced induction engines have compression ratios in the 8:1 range.

Many high-performance engines are designed to operate with a high maximum compression, and thus demand fuels of higher octane. A common misconception is that power output or fuel efficiency can be improved by burning fuel of higher octane than that specified by the engine manufacturer. The power output of an engine depends in part on the energy density of the fuel being burnt. Fuels of different octane ratings may have similar densities, but because switching to a higher octane fuel does not add more hydrocarbon content or oxygen, the engine cannot develop more power.

However, burning fuel with a lower octane rating than that for which the engine is designed often results in a reduction of power output and efficiency. Many modern engines are equipped with a knock sensor (a small piezoelectric microphone), which sends a signal to the engine control unit, which in turn retards the ignition timing when detonation is detected. Retarding the ignition timing reduces the tendency of the fuel-air mixture to detonate, but also reduces power output and fuel efficiency. Because of this, under conditions of high load and high temperature, a given engine may have a more consistent power output with a higher octane fuel, as such fuels are less prone to detonation. Some modern high performance engines are actually optimized for higher than pump premium (93 AKI in the US). The 2001 - 2007 BMW M3 with the S54 engine is one such car. Car and Driver magazine tested a car using a dynamometer, and found that the power output increased as the AKI was increased up to approximately 96 AKI.

Most fuel filling stations have two storage tanks (even those offering 3 or 4 octane levels): those motorists who purchase intermediate grade fuels are given a mixture of higher and lower octane fuels. "Premium" grade is fuel of higher octane, and the minimum grade sold is fuel of lower octane. Purchasing 91 octane fuel (where offered) simply means that more fuel of higher octane is blended with commensurately less fuel of lower octane, than when purchasing a lower grade. The detergents and other additives in the fuel are often, but not always, identical.

The octane rating was developed by chemist Russell Marker at the Ethyl Corporation in 1926. The selection of n-heptane as the zero point of the scale was due to its availability in high purity. Other isomers of heptane produced from crude oil have greatly different ratings.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Trevor from Warragul

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2012, 12:36:27 AM »
If I could get it nearby, I would use high octane leaded fuel in my '78 CBX in a heartbeat!

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Offline trueblue

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2012, 03:23:45 AM »
I know if I use 91 octane in my 650 when climbing a hill in top gear with the missus on the back it pings slightly where as if I run 96 octane it doesn't.  If I could get my hands on some leaded fuel, I would run it in a heartbeat.
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Offline kslrr

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2012, 08:55:12 AM »
Higher octane is not a good thing if the motor is not made for it.  Higher octane burns slower and will increase carbon build up due to incomplete burning.  If your compression ratio is 10.5:1, or higher, than an octane of 91 on up is needed.  If stock, 87 to 89 is fine.  I find that most of my bikes, no mater the make, run great on 89, sometimes 91 when the weather is hot and I'm riding for long stretches.
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Offline simon#42

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2012, 10:37:12 AM »
Higher octane is not a good thing if the motor is not made for it.  Higher octane burns slower and will increase carbon build up due to incomplete burning.  If your compression ratio is 10.5:1, or higher, than an octane of 91 on up is needed.  If stock, 87 to 89 is fine.  I find that most of my bikes, no mater the make, run great on 89, sometimes 91 when the weather is hot and I'm riding for long stretches.

higher octane fuel does not burn slower , the octane has nothing to do with the burn speed at all .

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2012, 11:34:35 AM »
Then why do you have to retard your ignition timing for higher octane gas?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2012, 12:12:28 PM »
This is the best write up I've seen for the explanation and understanding of octane, as related to engine life requirements and performance.  Lengthy, but all you need to know is right there.

http://www.turborx7.com/fuel.htm

As a result of reading this, I now feel empathy for those countries that distribute fuel with only the RON rating method, as it seriously slights those with high performance engines.

The pump method used in the US, really is a superior rating system that provides benefits to both the average motorist AND the performance enthusiast.  Interestingly, the German autobahn was responsible for its development, as engines were self destructing while using fuel meeting RON requirements (but not meeting MON).

I had previously thought that the US pump method (PON or AKI) was a marketing ploy to confuse motorists at the pump, and lead them to buy more expensive fuel that was un-needed.  (Which I believe does happen, but by happenstance rather than primary intent.  But, I guess people paying extra for their ignorance in not a new concept.)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2012, 12:35:18 PM »
Then why do you have to retard your ignition timing for higher octane gas?
That is not a question that is universally applied to all engines.  And, in fact, is untrue (and even backwards) for many engines.  (You can advance your timing for engines that require and use higher octane fuel.)  Or, put another way, you can retard spark to better tolerate using a fuel with a lower octane rating than is required for best operation.  Modern engines do this automatically with their knock sensors and computer ignition timing control.  If the recommended premium fuel is not used, the computer adapts the timing to compensate (And also reduce power output availability/capability).

As I understand it,  Pre-ignition is really auto-ignition of the fuel charge in the chamber at a location far from the intended ignition point.  Knock occurs when the collision between the auto-ignition source (or sources) collide with the timed ignition flame fronts inside the cylinder.  Therefore, retarding the ignition timing allows more of the fuel to be expended from pre-ignition before the timed ignition source can arrive, and thus knock is reduced.  Of course, the power stroke is no longer optimized for peak output.  Ignition retard is just a band-aid workaround for the real issue of having compression pressures too high and using a fuel with deficient octane rating.

Cheers,
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2012, 12:47:46 PM »
Then why do you have to retard your ignition timing for higher octane gas?

pretty sure higher octane allows you to slightly advance your timing...although switching from 87 to 93 may only allow you to advance a negligable amount...more advance makes some power as long as you are not pre-igniting/detonating.  But be careful...pre-ignition/detonation reduces power even if it is not serious enough to be heard or damage the engine

oops...TT beat me to it
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2012, 12:56:48 PM »
I would guess that a lot of times, when guys think their bike/car runs better on unnecessarily high octane, they have experienced "compression creep"- carbon has built up in the combustion chamber to the point that the combustion chamber is actually smaller, thus raising the compression ratio (ironically, the carbon buildup may have been created by running unnecessarily high octane in the first place)...either that or their timing is set incorrectly or their advance curve is too fast(weak advancer springs)
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Offline 750resurrection

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2012, 01:32:15 PM »
The no ethanol regular grade just hit $4.21 here in WI.

We don't have zero ethanol content gasoline here. They hide the ethanol stickers on the inside or near top of the pumps with tiny stickers you have to hunt for to see.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:40:43 PM by 750resurrection »

Offline 750resurrection

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2012, 01:38:44 PM »
I couldn't have said it better.  The reason why a lot of guys are mixing the higher octane fuel is because of the lead issue with pre-1972 motorcycles.  But Honda's valves were already hardened so there shouldn't be any issues associated with unleaded fuels.  However because of the ethanol fuel additive that we are forced to use in the states, guys are no begining to mix aviation fuel, racing fuel,etc. as an attempt to minimize the determintal effects of ethanol (gummed up carbs, loss of performance,etc.)

I used to go out to the local airport and fill up a tank of their high powered gas for some real fun, and it was massively noticeable before leaving the strip area and getting back to the highway. Well, we all know what disaster put the kibosh on that.
 Now it's a gated fenced in horror with evil motherland protection signs, so I have not even asked, as I don't relish the idea of first responders in their tinted window SUV's going gonzo in psycho mode...  oh look the motorcycle rider is getting fuel... he crossed the fence ! It's a sign of disaster coming .. quick .. call ... the ...  :o

 It's great I love it. I love it.

Offline simon#42

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2012, 02:09:48 PM »
I couldn't have said it better.  The reason why a lot of guys are mixing the higher octane fuel is because of the lead issue with pre-1972 motorcycles.  But Honda's valves were already hardened so there shouldn't be any issues associated with unleaded fuels.  However because of the ethanol fuel additive that we are forced to use in the states, guys are no begining to mix aviation fuel, racing fuel,etc. as an attempt to minimize the determintal effects of ethanol (gummed up carbs, loss of performance,etc.)

I used to go out to the local airport and fill up a tank of their high powered gas for some real fun, and it was massively noticeable before leaving the strip area and getting back to the highway. Well, we all know what disaster put the kibosh on that.
 Now it's a gated fenced in horror with evil motherland protection signs, so I have not even asked, as I don't relish the idea of first responders in their tinted window SUV's going gonzo in psycho mode...  oh look the motorcycle rider is getting fuel... he crossed the fence ! It's a sign of disaster coming .. quick .. call ... the ...  :o

 It's great I love it. I love it.

well it shouldn't be very noticeable , avgas is not a great fuel for bikes [ or cars ] it is designed for slow reving engines that operate at high altitude . its also full of anti foaming agents that we dont need and is very slow burning .
the only reason avgas is used in race engines is to stop detonation , you should only use enough to do this , no more or you go slower .

Offline 750resurrection

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2012, 02:41:30 PM »
Well Simon that's what the experts here claim, what you said.

However, I'll take my personal experience as the truth. The complaint of no verifiable scientific evidence ended for me when I tried it myself.

 I cannot say what exactly the fuel at the airport was. ( I want to say 104 octane but maybe it was 109 or 111 - not sure) I doubt my "normal gas" from that time had ethanol in it but then I'm not certain on that either. (I'm implying that might now make a difference)

 I can leave it up to the experts to tell everyone it doesn't matter or matters so little or can't really do anything, but on the other hand I'm talking about a well used bike with all it's idiosyncrasies and imperfections in the engine and tuning already present.

 I don't know - was I losing some power from pre-ignition on my normal fuel ? I would guess so considering the general commentary.
 
 Since ethanol robs gas mileage and power, and it's common now, I'd suspect aviation fuel at a local airport would give a noticeable power boost today.
Maybe some day I'll try a current experiment on the latest resurrection.

Offline Roach Carver

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2012, 02:48:18 PM »
This is where we get off track and into seat of the pants. I have never had a motorcycle engine dynoed, but I have had many race engines dynoed. That is the only true way to prove more or less power. The " i have to hold on extra tight" test with X fuel is unproveable and impossible to replicate. That said, If you like it go ahead and buy it. I will go with science/evidence on this one but thats just my nature. Maybe thats why my life is so boring.   smiley.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2012, 03:09:05 PM »
Science and physics be damned!! I feels the power increase!!  ;D
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Offline simon#42

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2012, 04:18:35 PM »
well as they say ' if it feels good it is good ' so go with what feels best

i used to spend weeks on the dyno trying different fuel and engine combinations . back in the good old days we used to run what was called blue gas [ although it was yellow ] which was a 120 octane leaded race fuel [ lots of lead ] it was also oxygenated and gave great power . trouble was you had to cover all your skin and wear an air fed face mask when you filled the bike up . when that was banned the 500s lost 20hp over night . now we live in enlightened times and im stuck using an unleaded race fuel that has cut the crank life of our 125's from 1000 miles to 100 miles , costs a fortune and constantly detonates , now thats progress .

Offline 750resurrection

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2012, 08:20:56 PM »
This is where we get off track and into seat of the pants. I have never had a motorcycle engine dynoed, but I have had many race engines dynoed. That is the only true way to prove more or less power. The " i have to hold on extra tight" test with X fuel is unproveable and impossible to replicate. That said, If you like it go ahead and buy it. I will go with science/evidence on this one but thats just my nature. Maybe thats why my life is so boring.   smiley.

Well, if you can't tell "by the seat of your pants" then all the dyno testing in the world, even after proving an increase, really does nothing for the situation.
Then of course you can claim proof, and you go out on your bike, and you feel nothing, because of course, it cannot help.

Wait, wait a minute, all the pro dyno testers have told us they have never seen any proof, don't have proof, and therefore, they will go with talk about pre-ignition and pinging being "insignificant" ( or rather not comment on it, and claim science is their master, of course ignoring any inconvenient scientific issues they'd rather not factor in and instead pretend don't exist)and thus claim proof with no proof and only "side evidence".

 So, after all the debating, I'll wait for the dyno proof, ( some people already claimed some dyno proof increases I thought) because the nay sayers are going to be incorrect. There are factors they don't want to include in their thought experiment, including it seems, also, the seat of their own pants in trying it themselves.

 On the other hand as well, once someone complains about pinging, the recommendation is higher octane.... and anyone whom has ever drove a noticeably pinging vehicle also notices the power increase once that condition is alleviated.
 My conclusion is that often the increase occurs because of the lack of perfection in the tuning of the vehicle in question, despite a riders opinion "it was running fine" then "really took off" with the higher quality gas. Another brought up the possible higher compression ratio from carbon buildup in the combustion chamber( thus responding well to higher octane eliminating the bitty pings).
 I think there are other factors like 87 octane not being quite that good at many USA pumps I've heard others mention in other threads. So mr cheapo has some pinging and detonation not really noticeable and wala the splurge tank gives some power boost.
 So if we're going to cite science as the truth, we need all the factors that science can identify instead of just "potential power content of equal mole weights of fuel under perfect conditions". Right ? lol
 (ducking)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 08:54:53 PM by 750resurrection »

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2012, 09:22:12 PM »
Quote
On the other hand as well, once someone complains about pinging, the recommendation is higher octane.... and anyone whom has ever drove a noticeably pinging vehicle also notices the power increase once that condition is alleviated.

I agree 100%, i had an older car that pinged its butt off using the grade of fuel that it was supposed to run on {lowest grade unleaded}, i used the higher octane "premium" unleaded and it made a noticeable difference, especially under load, i would say that is a performance upgrade. With the lower grade unleaded the car was a slug off the mark and pinged badly, with the premium it spun the wheels from take off.... Flame away...
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2012, 09:24:17 PM »
RR - show us the Dyno sheets or it didn't happen....HA!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Using high octane fuel? I hate to ask..
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2012, 09:30:22 PM »
RR - show us the Dyno sheets or it didn't happen....HA!

Haha, you know, there are some of us that are experienced enough and have been around long enough to know if a car or bike runs better with a change of fuel and i don't really care what anyone says, my car was completely different to drive with higher octane fuel.... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.