Topic: After cam swap, won't start | Block off pics

[stereosilence]

Well, I didn't do a lot of checking around. I put in some new rockers to replace a few worn ones and swapped the cam. Prior to that, it was running well (aside from being a little rich). So, I wasn't expecting any problems.

It is really very discouraging.

[MCRider]

Well, I didn't do a lot of checking around. I put in some new rockers to replace a few worn ones and swapped the cam. Prior to that, it was running well (aside from being a little rich). So, I wasn't expecting any problems.

It is really very discouraging.

Hmmm. Not what i thought. Try to remember its just a machine and we are better than it.

My project has fought me on several occasions, but help from here, and knowing people are watching, help to solve each problem.

[750resurrection]

Well, curiosity should kill the squealing cat. 

Meaning of course, it will be interesting finding out what happened, so that's an incentive.

 Maybe if money isn't tight you could put in those lower triangle area bar replacements for easy access to the top end.
 (not sure you already didn't I only went over the build thread kinda quickly)

 On the upside that was quite the transformation you did so it's definitely worth it to get back into it and find what went wrong.
 I'd guess it's not too bad since it turns over fairly easy by the look of it.
 

[MCRider]

Well, curiosity should kill the squealing cat. 

Meaning of course, it will be interesting finding out what happened, so that's an incentive.

 Maybe if money isn't tight you could put in those lower triangle area bar replacements for easy access to the top end.
 (not sure you already didn't I only went over the build thread kinda quickly)

 On the upside that was quite the transformation you did so it's definitely worth it to get back into it and find what went wrong.
 I'd guess it's not too bad since it turns over fairly easy by the look of it.

Its a 550, so the engine doesn't have to comeout anyway. The frame rail kit you reference is for 750s.

[750resurrection]

Ok thanks McRider.

 I'll be stupid again, why not. 

 Does anyone think it's a possibility his oil never made it to the top end so it's just a matter of a dry bearing area ?

 

[Don R]

dude, that sucks. Maybe a few drips of oil in each cylinder, if the squeal gets quieter it could be a ring or piston problem if it's unchanged maybe it's a bearing squeal, i'd look at the cam first.

[brandEn]

Turning the engine over with that big nut is fine. Its the small 10mm that hold on the big nut you don't want to turn the engine over with. The big nut is slotted and fits over tangs on the advancer. The advancer has a pin that fits onto the crank.

FWIW. I had a issue similar to this on my CB750. It ended up being no oil getting to the top left side of the cam due to a plugged oil jet. The squeaking was the rockers rubbing on the cam lobes with no lubrication. Not saying that's your problem but I would at least look under those valve caps for oil or lack of it. Can you remove the cam cover with the engine in the frame?

[singedebile]

on the 500 550 you can remove the cam cover without removing the engine.

[dave500]

check the cam timing again,rotate the engine to the 1/4 tdc mark,if your cam notch is forward and level with the gasket surface as per the book or rearwards and level with the gasket surface its ok.

[dave500]

your cam CANNOT be 180 out,this comes from cars where the dissy can be inserted 180 out(to the cam),most dissys are driven by the cam and spin at the same speed as the cam which is half crank speed,if you insert the dissy 180 out you can swap the leads around at the cap to fix it,or remove and insert the dissy correctly,,people have had the leads around 180 out not the dissy.

[matt mattison]

check the cam timing again,rotate the engine to the 1/4 tdc mark,if your cam notch is forward and level with the gasket surface as per the book or rearwards and level with the gasket surface its ok.

+1 . If you are off a tooth or two it probably won't run . If that's the case, expect some bent valves. That cat squealing noise ain't good. Bent up valves and or stems grinding through their guides could make that sort of noise ? You could perform a leak down test to confirm this. Your probably gonna take it all down again anyway, so maybe the leak down test is pointless ? These engines are a lot like an interference engine meaning, there isn't much room for a timing error. The valves fully open run real close to the piston top. Many here set up their cams by just lining up the marks and they are fine. I always use a degree wheel because those marks can be off sometimes.

[stereosilence]

I'm sure the cam chain is correct. I did it wrong the first time and when I tried to set the valve clearance it was all effed up. I went back and very carefully set it. Unlubricated rockers is probably the answer as I put some new ones in (as well as a new cam) and didn't oil them. I'll bust it open and put some fresh oil on everything. That would still only be the preliminary problem as it is still not cranking properly. I'll take a lot more photo and video when I go back.

IT HAS TO HAPPEN DURING PERFECT RIDING WEATHER! At least I still have my trusty SV1000.

[750resurrection]

edit: I see you just above hang in there stereosilence.

 Bummer on the hassle, this is one of the most interesting mysteries I've seen here.

 I'm very excited to see what the cat squealing problem turns out to be, the video has made this thread awesome, kudos to StereoSilence.

Godspeed and good luck.

 I'm still guessing cam bearing, as he turns crank nearly 360 with 2 wrenchings, constant squeal - if a valve was stuck and bent, the lifter(direct stem tip whatever) / cam lobe combo would be off the squeal mode part of the revo.

 Help from more experienced, is 360 on crank a full revo on the cam, or only 180 ? If only 180 my theory is weak & shot really. Need more spin, more cat squeal test ?

 Carmel corn ready and munching away here.

[Greggo]

When you reinstalled the rocker cover, did you hold the rockers back with rubber bands like TwoTired pointed out? 

[750resurrection]

So a rocker could be hung up on the lid ?

The squealing being the center tapped hole of the rocker on the shaft ? 

Wait, no that shaft doesn't turn...

The cam lobe jamming against the stuck down rocker contact...?  yeeaouch...

 If he finds a dry oil feed hole like brandEn was saying, can he run a coathanger down it to try to clear it ? some air pressure... PB Blaster man.... make it easy and work it smart.

[Greggo]

Whatever is going on in that motor, I think it's safe to say the rocker cover needs to come back off, and the top end completely looked over.  Bummer, but it may help others avoid a problem in the future.

Keep us updated!

[750resurrection]

Black smoke is oil, stereosilence was saying white smoke, which is gas rich, unburned or lightly burned gas / vapor....

 So maybe the points are off a bit for the new cam... and after the theoretical upper oiling fix (hopefully easy) he can time it in and be good to go.

[Old Scrambler]

When all of my valve seals were leaking and I consumed a quart of oil in 100 miles........the exhaust smoke was WHITE.

When my carbs are too rich my exhaust TIPS are BLACK...............

I think Sherlock would deduce that too much OIL burns white and too much GAS burns black.

This problem on the 550 is a dry cam and rockers..........PLEASE oil everything before you turn the motor........then re-set you timing after verifying the cam is properly aligned.  With new rockers........be sure to re-set the clearances after the first heat-cycle.

[750resurrection]

Thanks again - oil is black, smoke is white, forgot the rule and the giant clouds seen and or ingested.
 
 Guess my cam is out 180. 

[MCRider]

Thanks again - oil is black, smoke is white, forgot the rule and the giant clouds seen and or ingested.
 
 Guess my cam is out 180. 

There have been at least 2 threads here where a bike had white smoke. A poster persisted in claiming this was a rich condition and convinced the OP to lean out the bottom end. The smoke went away. I knoooooooow. I'd never heard of this either. White/blueish white smoke = oil is how i was raised. Maybe should modify to: = oil or rich condition.

I know a rich condition should be dark smoke, but we'll see.

I have a new motor that smokes. I am getting ready to lean it out. We'll see.

[Greggo]

Does the awesomeness of ethanol in our fuel have an effect on the smoke color possibly?

[750resurrection]

Ok MCRider, so I have a theory.

 Rich condition, cylinder doesn't fire, traditionally one would hear "gas washed" cylinder/rings possible damage, does oil smell like gas ?
 
 Theory: When the cylinder doesn't fire, the usual marked increase in pressure from explosion in the already compressed pressure chamber driving the piston downward, does not occur.
  We have a lower pressure there than a properly firing cylinder.
 This lower pressure results, as the strokes go on, on an intake air takeup block by back pressure on the exhaust valve from the ex manifold/pipe area burning the gas, in oil blowing upward past the rings, exiting through the exhaust valve, and burning with the gas and oil richened hot exhaust, causing the white smoke.

 I could have said that better, hope you caught my thinking.
 

[MCRider]

Ok MCRider, so I have a theory.

 Rich condition, cylinder doesn't fire, traditionally one would hear "gas washed" cylinder/rings possible damage, does oil smell like gas ?
 
 Theory: When the cylinder doesn't fire, the usual marked increase in pressure from explosion in the already compressed pressure chamber driving the piston downward, does not occur.
  We have a lower pressure there than a properly firing cylinder.
 This lower pressure results, as the strokes go on, on an intake air takeup block by back pressure on the exhaust valve from the ex manifold/pipe area burning the gas, in oil blowing upward past the rings, exiting through the exhaust valve, and burning with the gas and oil richened hot exhaust, causing the white smoke.

 I could have said that better, hope you caught my thinking.

Yeah, like that. 

Seriously, something like that may be happening. I had to drop my oil for another reason, pan, pump et al. There seems to be an oil and vinegar appearance to the oil. Could be gas washed down the cyl walls. So that's happening as well as,

The odd mix of gas and oil coming out the pipe.

Proof is in the punch. We'll know when i get to it.

[LesterPiglet]

Please don't use that nut for turning the engine, they snap regularly.

Curious. That's what its for. Nice if one can remove the spark plugs, but even so... that's what that nut is for. Treat it right, it won't snap.

What do you use?

Ignore me. I'm having one of my "periods". 

[750resurrection]

Sounds good MCRider another exciting experiment in the future works. 

 Greggo, could be on the ethanol as a factor I'm clueless.

 The other gentleman brought up the valve seals, a possibility.

 I got the impression stereosilence's 550 didn't run long at all, maybe blowing out temporary gasket or other cleaning solvent etc. doused in while he was doing the cam work.

Knock on wood my 750 pile isn't tuned at all yet (lean carb pod no mano balance) but exhaust is clear. Can't see jack.Whew.