Topic: After cam swap, won't start | Block off pics

[phil71]

If you have the head off, the jug is childs play. Aircraft stripped sounds like a tremendous amount of work to repaint engine parts. Media blasting will make short work of it.   Gasket kit would be good to have on hand. Lapping the valves is probably a good idea.
 The scenario that seems the most likely is that you turned the engine with the cam misaligned, and bent a valve or valves with just the strength in your arm.  Then, when you set it right again, it ran poorly due to the lack of compression.
I think you mentioned the engine being harder to kick.. If you kicked it , that bent hanging valve(s) may have bent even more.
   Anyway, you'll probably need some valves I guess.

[DustyRags]

Get a gasket kit. Vesrah's did right by me- had everything I needed. Aircraft stripper does OK pulling the gasket residue off, but it might still be a pain in the butt- I ended up lapping my surfaces flat with a chunk of flat board (maybe 4x8 inches or so) with 220 grit sandpaper. Knocks down the high points really quick, but big enough that the pressure is very low once it's flat (i.e. clean). You might have some trouble getting the bottom of the cylinders off if it hasn't happened before/in a long time- my brother got mine off by stuffing a lever under the cam chain tensioner knob thingy. I'm not at all sure if that's the best way to do it (or even a good way), but boy howdy was it effective!

And if you tear the valves apart, I found that an egg carton is a godsend to keep it all organized. Mark them front and back (or in and out, whatever floats your boat) and 1-4. Poke holes in the top so the valves can stick out, and you can even close it.

[matt mattison]

In order to check for a bent valve or leaking combustion chamber do this. With the head off, flip over (combustion chamber facing up). Pour some kerosene into the combustion chamber. Now watch and see if the kerosene drains out, and take note as to whether you leaked from the intake or exhaust. A bent valve might or might not be visually obvious, that's why it's important to do this. Some previous posts on your thread explained how to check this with the head on the engine as well.

[DustyRags]

I poured some gas into the intakes, and then angled the head so it was sitting flat on top of the valves. Then again for the exhausts. You get a much more accurate "reading" that way.

[750resurrection]

If I take the head off, what all should I do while I'm in there and what parts will I need?

Should I plan on lapping the valves? Do I need more than just the head gasket?

I'm planning to get the carbs and exhaust off tomorrow and see if I can get the head up, then I suppose I can see what is going on and figure out what I have to do.

What can I use to clean out the head? Brake parts cleaner? Carb cleaner?

I want to, someday, use the aircraft stripper and repaint the engine silver. Do you think now is the time while I'm taking everything apart?

Hey this tomorrow hope it's going well.

I use a brass chucked brush and soft metal scraper on heads ( $1 chinko pot metal so it's soft), I guess should be okay on the 550 ones. Plus I use some of that spray gasket cleaner didn't seem the greatest last time could just be me.
 Anything that doesn't eat up any rubber seals or eat metal is ok.

 Yesterday FF said acetone and automatic trans fluid 50/50 for breaking free stuff instead of PB Blaster, I'd try that if I had a can of acetone handy.(your garage looked like it might)
 The deposits can be really hard in the chamber areas.
Of course be careful on the flat contact surfaces where the gaskets go so as not to put any scrapes in the metal. ( tiny tiny scratches doesn't hurt but gougy is not good)
 Also if you're cleaning it, scrape in circles around the open circular cylinder bores - if you slip you don't want a scratch going into a cylinder but rather ring around the rosy so it will still seal - so like scrape going in circles around the bores.

 Check that 1 & 2 piston top w light around edges for a stuck pebble/ grit thing .... 

[stereosilence]

When I get home from work, I am going to attack the bike. Not sure how far I'll get. I should at least get the exhaust and carbs off (I need to do some organizational stuff so I don't lose the screws and nuts and such).

Back to repainting the engine, I have heard that aircraft stripper is great for caked on grease and grime (I'm thinking there could be fossils in my plug recesses) as well as removing the old paint that is left here and there. I don't know anybody that does sand blasting around here, but it sounds like it could be expensive.

[luap]

save yourself some time. could find a radiator shop or a chemical stripping company an have everything chemical stripped, grease dirt gaskets everything removed

[MCRider]

save yourself some time. could find a radiator shop or a chemical stripping company an have everything chemical stripped, grease dirt gaskets everything removed

This suggestion has come up before, and I've asked others is this something you've actullay done? Or is it just a good idea?  Which it is, problem being that at least around here radiator and chemical stripping shops I've asked don't wnat to touch it. Too much liabillity. Our engine cases and covers won't stand up to a true "hot tank" and questionable about other chemical peels.

i ended up with the old fall back plastic bead blasting. Requires a thorough cleaning though.

As to Stereo's question as to cost: i had 3 sets of cases and some misc bead blasted for $50.

[luap]

I have done it with only good outcome. like most solutions it leaves the white residue but easy to get off.  I do think the bead blastin leaves a nicer finish then chemical

[stereosilence]

Should I call body shops or who about bead blasting?

[matt mattison]

A powder coater will usually have the ability to bead blast. Maybe look to harbor freight to get a cheap soda blaster set up and do it yourself. And you have the tool for the next project.

[stereosilence]

Update:
I didn't feel much like tinkering today, but due to thread loyalty, I got out there. I got the carbs and the exhaust off (that exhaust is more trouble than an ex-wife with a good lawyer) and *almost* had the head off when my 12mm socket (old and crappy) broke. My 1/4" drive deep socket won't fit, so I'll have to buy a new one tomorrow.

By the way, are the holes under those pucks supposed to be full of dirt and crud?

Bad news: One of the pucks made a break for it and went down the cam chain slot. Hopefully I can fish it out once I get it apart.

(possibly) Good news: I found what could possibly be the problem. The cam sprocket has a chunk gashed out of it that definitely wasn't there when I bought it. I must have bashed it somehow when I put it in and then re-did it at the very beginning. I bet that chip went down the black hole as well. It may have lodged and be making all that scraping sound?

The photo is blurry but you should still be able to make out the gouge.

[MCRider]

Should I call body shops or who about bead blasting?

Good start:
http://www.thomasnet.com/georgia/bead-blasting-services-3612744-1.html

I have a harbor Freight soda blaster. It won't do the cases to my satisfaction, incl stripping the paint. Its good for corrosion, clear lacquer if you're patient.

I'd prefer plastic beads over glass as some say they won't damage the engine if some get left behind. But the goal is to clean them ALL out first, of every nook and cranny and screw holes. Best to plug the screw holes first with screws.
http://www.ehow.com/how_5728860_choose-sandblasting-media.html

[DustyRags]

Oi, that looks ugly! Good luck finding that- maybe a magnet? But it'll probably just suck down to the nearest bit of steel and grab the cam chain, the main shaft, etc, etc.

I've found that my dial-type torque wrench is great for busting out tough nuts. It's nice and long, has a solid handle, and has a neat little dial thing that's dead useful to see when you're putting too much torque on a nut.

Now, go to the nearest auto parts store and get a pack of shop rags. It'll run you about $4. Stuff one down into the cam chain slot, and one into each of the cylinder holes when you get the cylinders off. Leave them there the whole time so nothing else falls in. When you pull them out, pull them out slowly so that anything that fell into them gets dumped outside the various holes. That may be the single smartest thing I learned, and lo, nothing I dropped fell that deep into the engine!

[Dimitri13]

The cavities under the pucks are outside the engine, so yes, dirt and crud will build up in there. Make sure you replace them when you button everything back up.

[dave500]

aftermarket cam sprockets dont have that hard rubber guide,i remove it from the stock ones if it looks warpy.

[Dimitri13]

aftermarket cam sprockets dont have that hard rubber guide,i remove it from the stock ones if it looks warpy.

I was wondering why that sprocket looked weird. My sprocket didn't have that rubber thing on it.

[Don R]

I've found that my dial-type torque wrench is great for busting out tough nuts. It's nice and long, has a solid handle, and has a neat little dial thing that's dead useful to see when you're putting too much torque on a nut.


[/quote]

Generally torque wrenches shouldn't be used for that. My manual says not to anyway.

[DustyRags]

You're probably right. Let me rephrase that:

I've found that my dial-type torque wrench is great for busting out possibly tough nuts that may just need a bit more oomph. It's nice and long, has a solid handle, and has a neat little dial thing that's dead useful to see when you're putting too much torque on a nut and might damage your nut, substrate or wrench.

I'm not a small chap, and may at times be a bit too good at throwing my weight behind stuff. I've learned to play nice and get a second opinion torque wrench when there's any doubt.

[stereosilence]

You're probably right. Let me rephrase that:

I've found that my dial-type torque wrench is great for busting out possibly tough nuts that may just need a bit more oomph. It's nice and long, has a solid handle, and has a neat little dial thing that's dead useful to see when you're putting too much torque on a nut and might damage your nut, substrate or wrench.

I'm not a small chap, and may at times be a bit too good at throwing my weight behind stuff. I've learned to play nice and get a second opinion torque wrench when there's any doubt.

It was the actual socket that broke (it was already cracked). I got all but one bolt off, but I imagine once I loosened all the others, it put added pressure on the last one so the socket finally broke on it. Not a big deal. My 3/8" drive wrench seems to do the trick just fine.

[DustyRags]

Well there you go!

[750resurrection]

Hey good detective work there stereosilence.

 I was thinking maybe a strong magnet on the botoom of the case and drag toward the center, then try to snack whatever up - but really you'll have a bit of access under 2 of 4 pistons, right - I think so.

 So if you get a good extending antenna mech magnet, you could jam the end in stiff wood dowel and have better fishing direction - if you pull up a chunk on it that matches that cam metal color or shape... wala!

 Maybe a long shot but heck you never know and like maybe shake it and drain the oil ?  Not sure if that's a wet sump I think it is - heck you could try washing oil under the pistons then draining then magnet check the catch - maybe that's worth it.

[stereosilence]

Got the head off. See the video below. I put commentary in it this time. Looks like it all needs a good cleaning. I put some motor oil on cylinder two with my finger and it actually made the squeak louder. It def. sounds rubbery though. I think that is good...

I don't have a rubber mallet to take off the block. I guess I'll get there soon.

With the head off.

[nancy]

Can move the block up if you have a putty blade that you can "tap" cautiously into the gap to break the seal and wiggle back and forth with your hands. Or - a wedge of wood cut to a sharpish point.
Also might use normal hammer to tap a piece of soft wood. Don't hit anything onto any fins. They only bend and/or break and do not help upward movement.
My 750 block came up using the above methods. I used the weight of the motor to help shift it...by lifting the motor up by the sides of the block and shaking..after I had made a start using a putty knife hit softly with a hammer. Mine did leave scratch marks..easily cleaned off with file/sandpaper/elbow action.
Mark

[phil71]

i can't wait to hear what caused all this. dumb question, if it was running good before, why did you swap the cam?