Author Topic: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike  (Read 118111 times)

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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #425 on: July 16, 2016, 06:47:10 pm »
POP'S, we didn't bother cause it was also jumping out of gear. I was looking at my lockup last night...

Just my opinion based on personal experience, unless you're running a power adder like a turbo or nitrous, I see no reason to install a lockup in a no bar Honda. We're just nit making enough power down track to make use of one. Plus you'd still have to slide out the clutch on launch. But then, what the heck do I know about no bar Hondas and drag racing. In fact I don't know anything about drag racing motorcycles at all.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #426 on: July 16, 2016, 07:53:01 pm »
Huh? You would know.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #427 on: July 17, 2016, 08:32:02 am »
Frank I always agree with what you say.................
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline POPS 911

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #428 on: July 17, 2016, 01:07:20 pm »
But: With Bill running a COBRA or the Butch head on all those high dollar parts [ built for speed ] that motor might pull thru the clutches on the hit, then slowing his ET because the clutches not locked up total and slipping. Last week the guy I HELPED ON THE GS1150 bike had to much static and with a 7000rpm off the button and pulling thru his line lock 9.40 = fix lower static [spring pressure] lower launch rpm 5500rpms and he had his best ever 60 foot time and a 9.16 with a lock up off this bar bike = he owns this bike for 7 years and tried many things to go one round against the BRUCE BIKES KILLERS. When he got back to his trailer I said do-not touch anything thinking your going 8.90 = it's always just this little more next time tinkering and he will be back to 9.40, the weather that day was bad with 3300-3500 DA.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #429 on: July 17, 2016, 10:00:09 pm »
He could very well need a lockup in his bike Pops. But I will say this, you need to know what you're doing when installing a two stage lockup in a no bar bike. Having the clutch come in to quick is no joke, even for an experienced rider. Selecting the right static springs and knowing how much weight(or no weight) to put on the arms is critical. It's trial and error because not every bike reacts the same. Low end torque/ horsepower, gearing, rider weight, bike weight, suspension squat, front end stiffness, rider skills on the clutch release and throttle position/rpms all come into play on how quick the lockup applies that extra pressure to the clutch pack. When using a two stage lockup, I like to start with very soft static springs and no weight at all on the lockup arms. I adjust from there depending on how the bike reacts and if I experience slippage. The clutch pack gets pulled after every pass or if a change is made to inspect wear. Lockups aren't for everyone as you know because they can sometimes hurt more than they help. The good thing about the clutch Bill has is its legal in Man Cup.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #430 on: July 17, 2016, 10:00:47 pm »
But then, what the heck do I know about no bar Hondas and drag racing. In fact I don't know anything about drag racing motorcycles at all.
Frank, you must have meant to post this on the BS thread on the open forum, AKA the liar thread. ;D
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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #431 on: July 17, 2016, 10:15:04 pm »
Do any of you know the origin of what you are calling a "lock up" clutch? Pops, this dates back to when you were a young man, so I would expect you to know. ;)
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #432 on: July 17, 2016, 11:01:14 pm »
Didn't MRE make the first lock up type clutch?? Hmm, or maybe that was the air shifter, or maybe it was the auto tranny??

Scottly, you know we're all just full of jokes on this forum to begin with. I was simply injecting my bit of humor since no one listens to my advice anyway. 

Offline 754

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #433 on: July 17, 2016, 11:11:02 pm »
Karata glide was around long long ago..
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #434 on: July 17, 2016, 11:43:27 pm »
Karata glide was around long long ago..
[/quot
Karata glide was around long long ago..

I still have one of those for a KZ.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #435 on: July 18, 2016, 02:57:08 am »
Leo Payne I think had the first slipper type. Frank, if I ever go lock up YOU'LL  be there I hope!  Man, I just wanna make some passes, hell I'll ride a stocker at this point.  If all works out we might, I said might have 3 10 second bikes there.
But as usual the only proven one is Frank's,  mines all talk at this point. Bill
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Offline POPS 911

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #436 on: July 18, 2016, 07:07:50 am »
If Tony Lang made it we use it, the first ever slider for a Suzuki 1000 was sent to MSP the next day after he [ TONY ] called the shop and asked do you guys want to be the FIRST...... I used springs and shims on my ol ZIR with a hand polish basket and clutch disc with no burrs or dings from a hits that took two hands to pull in the clutch it was only a S/ST class bike = at that time IDBA paid for win ticket no MPH slips.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #437 on: July 18, 2016, 08:27:37 am »
Lots of guys look in here. How about one of you guys explain the mechanism and action of lock ups and sliders please.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #438 on: July 18, 2016, 11:31:31 am »
Lots of guys look in here. How about one of you guys explain the mechanism and action of lock ups and sliders please.

Jerry, per your request above, find below a few pictures of lockup clutches. The first one is a 2 stage lockup similar to Bills. The next two pictures are of a multi stage lockup similar to the one in my no bar KZ I race in the Crazy 8's class. If you look carefully you will note a few differences in the styles of lockups. The main thing to note is the similarity. Both bolt to the existing pressure plate  of the bike. There are 5 arms that pivot on the lockup. They swing out as engine rpms increase to apply more inward force to the stock pressure plate, thereby squeezing against the clutch plates to keep it from slipping under high rpms. By adding weights(nut, bolt and washers) to the arms, the lockup applies more inward force to the pressure plate but this happens at a lower rpm which causes the clutch not to slip as much off the line. The lockup effective begins exerting extra force after the static springs have maxed out pressure against the plates.

Now that second and third picture is of a multistage clutch. It works a little different because it has little springs inside that lockup hat to keep those arms from swinging out freely and applying force to the pressure plate. The tuning kit comes with 4-5 different rate springs so you can tune the clutch as to how quick that final stage kicks in. So, you are in reality sliding  the clutch without holding the lever. When set up right, you can almost throw the lever out immediately and let the multistage do the work for you. A multi stage takes a while to set up and you might go through several clutch packs until you get it right. Once set it, you typically don't have to adjust it anymore. I use one because I'm spraying nitrous and don't want the clutch to lockup fully until right after the spray starts about 2 seconds off the line. It would be difficult for me to run 8.60's  @158 mph on a stock hand clutch on that no bar bike.

I hope my brief overview helps to get a basic understanding on how these clutches work. I'm not an expert and likely left something out but when running a no bar bike, you cannot allow a lockup clutch to come in too soon or its cause serious wheelie issues. In this case, soft static springs are a must and use very little weight on the arms. Engine rpm will handle the rest down track as the arms swing out more to apply pressure.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 11:47:20 am by dragracer »

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #439 on: July 18, 2016, 11:45:12 am »
By the way, if you look carefully at the modified pressure plate on the top picture, you will note 5 "buttons" on the plate. These buttons are hardened to with stand the "slamming" of the arms into the plate when it swing out at high rpms. Otherwise, it will wear into the aluminum plate.

I have no clue as to exactly how Kenny's lockup looks but the overall principles are the same on all lockups. 

Hayes, Rocksolid and MTC Gen2 multi stage lockups are a different animal all together and behave much like a full slider clutch-  that's why they are illegal in street ET. They turn a non- rider into an expert in my opinion.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 01:55:10 pm by dragracer »

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #440 on: July 18, 2016, 07:08:36 pm »
These are all centrifugally assisted clutches, where the initial pressure on the plates is provided by relativity weak springs, and pressure increases with RPM, while a stock system relies entirely on spring pressure. The concept dates back to the '30s, as a means to have a lighter clutch pedal for easier starts, but greater clamping pressure as RPMs increased, especially with trucks. The Long style pressure plate, similar to the Ford V-8 pressure plate, appeared around 1940, and was later modified by Hays with adjustable weights to dial in the slippage/lock up point for drag racing.   
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Offline 754

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #441 on: July 18, 2016, 07:34:20 pm »
When you mention Leo Payne,  the days they used slippers on B&J and Lenco  tranny's two speed or three I believe. The question asked. ( I thought) was on sit up. Four cylinder bikes.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 09:31:06 am by 754 »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #442 on: July 18, 2016, 09:05:11 pm »

Scottly, you know we're all just full of jokes on this forum to begin with. I was simply injecting my bit of humor since no one listens to my advice anyway.
;D ;D ;D
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #443 on: July 18, 2016, 09:28:18 pm »
Working to get it ready. Still need to adjust the valves. :-\

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #444 on: July 19, 2016, 02:29:53 am »
WTF,  now where would I be without your advice ......stuck in the 12's! Lol,  c'mon man, Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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Offline POPS 911

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #445 on: July 19, 2016, 05:35:08 am »
Carb racers the advice = bring you main jets kit DA will be a tuners numbers race = you got carbs, Treys got FI so he will be racing and NOT SPINNING WRENCHS. I'll bring the HUMOR money for the SOHC 750 base winner in ST/ET.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #446 on: July 19, 2016, 09:18:45 am »
Great explanations guys. And to think I just always dumped the clutch and held on LOL. Sum#$%* either got really squirrely or kissed the sky..... Had to be easier on the clutch but hard on the tire huh LMMFAO
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #447 on: July 19, 2016, 11:19:37 am »
I'll bring the HUMOR money for the SOHC 750 base winner in ST/ET.

One day you'll have to hand that money over to an SOHC racer Pops. Won't be me, but someone will be smiling with a cool $500 of your money in their pockets.

Thanks again for putting that challenge out there for us.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #448 on: July 19, 2016, 08:49:05 pm »
Carbs cleaned, reassembled, adjusted and back on the bike. Valve adjustment is on the top of the list for tomorrow followed by installation of an rpm launch light. She'll get loaded up after that so I can do some electrical work on my Crazy 8s KZ. Running about one day behind. May have to take tomorrow afternoon off from work to get caught up.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #449 on: July 20, 2016, 06:27:08 am »
Supposed to be hot as Hades this weekend...good luck guys.
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