Author Topic: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike  (Read 118076 times)

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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #250 on: October 08, 2014, 06:19:22 pm »
Waiting on parts! Oh well, do what you can, waiting on decals too! Haha  ;D Bill
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #251 on: October 08, 2014, 07:03:45 pm »
Waiting on parts! Oh well, do what you can, waiting on decals too! Haha  ;D Bill

Yeah, those stickers are real important cause they always make a bike go faster and turn the rider into winner too. Okay, i couldn't help myself- had to say it. Lol.

Keep pluggin Bill. You'll get it right.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #252 on: October 08, 2014, 07:30:29 pm »
I'm going get you!  ;D  Dem stickers will look good in the Winners Circle! If only we can get there! Got my super duper lubee jeter special wheel bearing lubricant today. So off to do sumpin besides decals, Daddy Frank said so! Sure do need seat time and lots of it!  8)
BentON Racing Website
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #253 on: October 08, 2014, 10:00:53 pm »
I'm going get you!  ;D  Dem stickers will look good in the Winners Circle! If only we can get there! Got my super duper lubee jeter special wheel bearing lubricant today. So off to do sumpin besides decals, Daddy Frank said so! Sure do need seat time and lots of it!  8)

Heck Bill,

If i don't keep you focused,  Jerry or Wilbur will be all over you. And you know Sam is sitting back looking for an opening. I'm just trying to keep you from getting bruised up. Hahaha.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #254 on: October 08, 2014, 10:04:54 pm »
LMMFAO
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #255 on: October 10, 2014, 07:33:41 pm »
Well gents, looks like I need to pull the motor back off the chassis. Went to a race today and it would not shift right. Jumped out of gear a few times or wouldn't shift at all. I'm pulling the undercut tranny out and putting a stick one in with more shifts forks and may be even another drum and shift pawls. One way or another she'll be ready for the Cup race in November.
An undercut trans should never pop out of gear. Sounds like it was never fully in gear. Are you still trying to use an air-shifter?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #256 on: October 11, 2014, 12:20:03 am »
Well gents, looks like I need to pull the motor back off the chassis. Went to a race today and it would not shift right. Jumped out of gear a few times or wouldn't shift at all. I'm pulling the undercut tranny out and putting a stick one in with more shifts forks and may be even another drum and shift pawls. One way or another she'll be ready for the Cup race in November.
An undercut trans should never pop out of gear. Sounds like it was never fully in gear. Are you still trying to use an air-shifter?
Yes sir, shift got the air shifter on it like it has been since the bike was built in 1997. Never had a problem with it working on this bike. Hundreds of shifts. I put all new shift components on the bike recently. I'm in the middle of pulling it back off as I type this so I can split the cases to double check what's going on inside. Wish it was my Kaw. I can remove the pan on it to get the forks and drum out. Dang Honda makes you yank the engine and split the freaken cases to simply inspect anything. Anyway, I will probably replace the new air kill assembly with an Mps electronic unit with adjustable kill time. Even if I have to raise it to 80 milliseconds, at least it'll be more consistent than foot shifting. The bike isn't set up for race capable foot shifting anyway. Got to figure this issue out this weekend so I can test by next Friday night. Bill is pushing hard to get ready and I've been on his back. So now I've got to follow suit and get my stuff together also. We don't have Sam here right now to carry us through so it seems its up to us to make the SOHC community proud or at least go down hard trying. I just wish we could get some of the forum members to get more involved in drag racing and come out with us to compete in the Man Cup Series. Oh well, wishful thinking on my part

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #257 on: October 11, 2014, 02:14:38 am »
Well, i got the darn motor back out. Took the side covers off and was able to salvage all the gaskets for the most part. A little sealant on a few pieces and i'll be good to go. I'm about tired of pulling this thing apart due to the tranny issue. I'm taking the undercut out and putting a stock one back in with more forks, another drum and i'm going to replace the outer shift pawls for good measure. The final thing i intend to do is replace the air kill assembly for the shifter with an MPS electronic kill box so i can adjust the kill time up some. Shouldn't
 be a problem to shift at 80 milliseconds.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 02:17:56 am by dragracer »

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #258 on: October 11, 2014, 02:16:26 am »
Even the shop puppy is getting tired of my yanking that engine out. He's ready to go home now- had enough for the night.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #259 on: October 11, 2014, 02:20:33 pm »
I'd leave the undercut box in and change the drum, forks and the rest, the undercut aren't the problem unless ones completely stuffed, in which case it should be easy to see.... ;)  Stock uncut box will just give you more headaches imo...
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline bear

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #260 on: October 11, 2014, 02:26:20 pm »
You may need a gear set somthing like the one on the left  Frank. ;)

Cheers,
Brian
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Offline bear

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #261 on: October 11, 2014, 02:35:16 pm »
I'd leave the undercut box in and change the drum, forks and the rest, the undercut aren't the problem unless ones completely stuffed, in which case it should be easy to see.... ;)  Stock uncut box will just give you more headaches imo...

Very true in most applications Retro.
But once you get close to the 100hp mark or higher on comp. bikes under cutting can be a weak link.
Example A below.

Cheers,
Brian

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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #262 on: October 11, 2014, 02:36:03 pm »
What do thos gears change like Brian, feel at the lever...?  Geeze you really bash up those gears sets Brian.... :o
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline bear

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #263 on: October 11, 2014, 02:46:25 pm »
All things being equal re the gear change mechanism the changes are very positive, no false neutral between 4th and 5th.
1st and second are a little clunky but I can't break 'em and thats saying something.  :)

Cheers,
Brian
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #264 on: October 11, 2014, 02:53:36 pm »
All things being equal re the gear change mechanism the changes are very positive, no false neutral between 4th and 5th.
1st and second are a little clunky but I can't break 'em and thats saying something.  :)

Cheers,
Brian

I know at some time i've already asked you this but, how much for those heavy duty gear sets Brian..?
Sorry for the hijack Frank, it is related though... ;D ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline bear

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #265 on: October 11, 2014, 03:09:56 pm »
Yep, sorry Frank.

Retro,
The last set I bought cost me $1500.
I'm in the process of having some manufactured by a mate  for other racers and they will be a bit cheaper.

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #266 on: October 11, 2014, 03:13:55 pm »
Yep, sorry Frank.

Retro,
The last set I bought cost me $1500.
I'm in the process of having some manufactured by a mate  for other racers and they will be a bit cheaper.

Cheers,
Brian

Thanks mate, PM me when you find out cost please... ;)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #267 on: October 11, 2014, 05:35:03 pm »
Hijack away fellas. Any information sharing is fair game on my posts. We're here to help one another no matter how the topic might be brought up. One question about the gears, does that price include the whole transmission??? $1500 is a going price here for a complete 1-2-3 auto , 5 speed transmission with modified drum and shift for a KZ. As far as the Honda, my use, that's a little pricey for my racing budget but if I don't find a solution soon, those gears could be a viable option to consider.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #268 on: October 11, 2014, 05:57:05 pm »
Well gents, looks like I need to pull the motor back off the chassis. Went to a race today and it would not shift right. Jumped out of gear a few times or wouldn't shift at all. I'm pulling the undercut tranny out and putting a stick one in with more shifts forks and may be even another drum and shift pawls. One way or another she'll be ready for the Cup race in November.
An undercut trans should never pop out of gear. Sounds like it was never fully in gear. Are you still trying to use an air-shifter?
Yes sir, shift got the air shifter on it like it has been since the bike was built in 1997. Never had a problem with it working on this bike. Hundreds of shifts. I put all new shift components on the bike recently. Anyway, I will probably replace the new air kill assembly with an Mps electronic unit with adjustable kill time. Even if I have to raise it to 80 milliseconds, at least it'll be more consistent than foot shifting.
Didn't we start this discussion about the air shifter about a year ago? ::) ;D
Please explain the existing "air kill assembly". Also, if you have any detailed info about the electronic unit, please post that. Perhaps my background in electronics can help..
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #269 on: October 11, 2014, 08:46:41 pm »
Scottly,

The air kill assembly is pneumatically actuated with a Cherry micro switch on top. Its a 2 way switch with a common in, and a n.c. and a n.o. terminal on the opposite side. The shift system is electric over air. That is, you activate it via a momentary push button that sends 12 volts to a pneumatic switching valve. The outlet of that valve is tee 'd with one air line going to the air kill assembly. The common is grounded, I use the no terminal which is wired into my MSD box to momentarily kill the ignition just long enough to unload the granny for the full throttle shift. The other air line from the switching valve goes to the pneumatic shift cylinder that's attached to a tab welded on the foot shifter. I'm using the "pull" side to up shift the bike. The issue with the newer style electric air kill is where the micro switch screws into the air plunger, there's a collar made around that will not allow it to be screwed in further which would normally prolong the kill time. You can manipulate the sequence between the shifter moving and the engine killing by increasing air line length to the air cylinder. Now, the MPS electronic kill box has a pot screw that allows you to adjust the length of kill time up or down in milliseconds to better suit your transmission efficiency or inadequacy. Its gets it input from the shift button also.

One thing to mention here is my transmission was NOT originally undercut when i first built the bike in 97'. The air shifter worked perfectly with the stock transmission until it started randomly jumping out of 3rd gear about 4 years ago. I parked the bike for a while and when Sam and Bill started messing with the auto, i dusted the bike off so i could support the SOHC team. Of course as i raced it more, the problem got worse so i parked it again. I decided to pull the engine to freshen it up and fix the transmission via and undercut job. I  started lightening up the bike also by putting the lighter weight wheels and brakes on the bike. I got it back up in time for the last Cup race in Bradenton to hang with Sam and the fellas. Issues with it jumping out of gear reappeared even with the undercut and i had problems with the new street tire hooking. I parked it again when i got home out of frustration. In the later part of this year, i pulled the engine again and split the cases to find out i had a bad shift drum, and bent forks although i did put good forks in with the cut tranny. I replaced the bad components along with replacement of the air shifter parts and when i tested the bike during a race, it did okay. My next outing it started either not going in gear, or jumping out. I  electronicall checked to see if the air shifter was killing the ignition and it was working just fine.  So...... its off again. I'm going to split the cases next week and see what i find. The only parts i didn't replace is the shift pawls. That will be my focus this time among other things. I'm going to look carefully at the cut gears and if i don't see a problem, i may still put another stock transmission in the bike to test it out. One freaking way or the other, i will get it to shift right before the Cup race in November.

Keep the input  coming.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 11:05:00 pm by dragracer »

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #270 on: October 12, 2014, 05:42:21 am »
Yeh and I resemble that remark also! One way or another, we'll be there! K. Bill ;D
BentON Racing Website
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline bear

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #271 on: October 12, 2014, 03:40:03 pm »
One question about the gears, does that price include the whole transmission???


Gear set only I'm afraid Frank.
We don't get missed down here when it comes to specialist machining or hypo parts.

Cheers,
Brian
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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #272 on: October 12, 2014, 04:48:06 pm »
Frank, I've looked at the instructions for the MPS air kill, and to adjust the timing they talk about drilling out a hole in the piston, not the length of the air line.
When you press the shift button, does the air cylinder stay activated as long as you hold the button, or does it operate and return to normal position, even with the button depressed?
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #273 on: October 12, 2014, 10:06:45 pm »
Frank, I've looked at the instructions for the MPS air kill, and to adjust the timing they talk about drilling out a hole in the piston, not the length of the air line.
When you press the shift button, does the air cylinder stay activated as long as you hold the button, or does it operate and return to normal position, even with the button depressed?

I intend to replace the air kill assembly with this unit:


http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MPS/as04.asp

http://www.mpsracing.com/instructions/MPS/Electronic_Kill.pdf

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #274 on: October 13, 2014, 12:55:01 pm »
The electronic kill appears to be a "one shot" circuit: it outputs a pulse of the same time duration, whether the shift button is depressed for 2 milliseconds or 2 seconds. My question is what sets the time the shift solenoid is energized? Your thumb? The solenoid takes time to operate, and the air cylinder also takes time. If, for example, the solenoid takes 10 milliseconds, and the cylinder takes 30 milliseconds, the button needs to be depressed for at least 40 milliseconds for the shift to complete.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....