Author Topic: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike  (Read 120316 times)

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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #500 on: July 31, 2016, 06:39:27 PM »
Well, just as an example, my dyno test of my 836 was conducted at an actual altitude of 4,500 ft, and corrected for the weather conditions, produced 70 hp. The actual HP put down to the drum was only 60. You lose 3% or more power for every 1000 ft increase in elevation, so you would be down over 10%. I think your times would have been much longer if that were the case.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #501 on: July 31, 2016, 06:43:09 PM »
What's like being high in the mountains?!!
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #502 on: July 31, 2016, 06:47:25 PM »
I never before understood the effects of altitude, until I rode my bike over a certain 11,000ft pass in Colorado. :o :o
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #503 on: July 31, 2016, 06:48:48 PM »
The portable weather stations take into account, temperature, barometric pressure and actual elevation to calculate DA/ CA. DA  numbers helps racers predict how the true weather conditions will speed up or slow down a car / bike at any given time throughout the day. The weather stations log info and when ETs are entered after each round, it can help build a database for various conditions. Timing and jetting can be altered to insure consistent ETs. There are lots of online programs that can be downloaded but they rely on info reported from various weather reporting agencies that you have to manually enter into a program. The handheld device does it for you. Devices sold by Kestrel give DA but can't predict ET.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #504 on: July 31, 2016, 06:54:13 PM »
Wego's are an ideal logging device to install on bike to get AFR on the fly at the track. With a weather station and Wego you can intelligently rejet the bike for exact conditions.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #505 on: July 31, 2016, 07:00:27 PM »
Yes, I understand how the weather stations in both dynos and the ET predictors work; they are performing the same functions. I question the 3500 ft number. ;)
Based on temperature alone, estimate a 1% loss for each 10 degree increase.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #506 on: July 31, 2016, 07:02:26 PM »
Do you have jets in 1% flow increments? ;D
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #507 on: July 31, 2016, 07:39:14 PM »
Decided it best not to chase jetting changes all season. We're bracket racing, better just to adjust dial ins. Again, I'm nit worried about the bike slowing down, I'm faced with a low speed "miss" for some reason that is not weather related but mechanical in nature.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #508 on: July 31, 2016, 07:53:55 PM »
Enough theory, lets see some time slips! ;)
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #509 on: July 31, 2016, 07:56:02 PM »
Will be in the shop evaluating the mechanical problems. Will post what I find.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #510 on: July 31, 2016, 08:17:04 PM »
Will be in the shop evaluating the carburation problems. Will post what I find.
Fixed it for you. ;D
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #511 on: August 01, 2016, 03:25:43 PM »
Found a ticket from Memphis last season. It was folded several times and the ink a bit faded but I tried to darken up the numbers with a pen. Yeah, it was hot like as a mofo then too.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #512 on: August 01, 2016, 04:06:25 PM »
Isn't that the winning ticket for SEL?
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #513 on: August 01, 2016, 05:42:07 PM »
Isn't that the winning ticket for SEL?

Nope. Street ET. I didn't run super eliminator until the last race of the season. Looks like I dial a 10.59 on that pass and slowed down to take the win at a 10.66. Had a 1.51, sixty foot. If I recall, my bed ET that day was a 10.45. I dialed back up mainly for consistency in hopes of making rounds. It worked.

Offline POPS 911

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #514 on: August 02, 2016, 05:08:41 AM »
SCOTTLY: I have had my hand held weather station for 15 years and check it at my track at the JEGS TRAILER weekly = his son races JR. Dragster and is track winner many weekend [ 50-75 kids ] in the lanes.  At MEMPHIS with a new battery it read 3500' at the starting line, I have a hand held wind gauge but the flags at the starting line said NO WIND [ at 3am Saturday if I would have taken a wind speed reading it would be 30-40mph w/rain ] as blue pop ups were flying around like hot air balloons. Sleeping in my tent was a night of HELL !!!!!
I do have a hand held predictor that you set up at 0's and your projected dial in w/two dials, then when you come to the line press the button to pull in that ambient air and it gives you a plus or minus on your dial. Come to a race and you can use these tools for a guess at SOHC 750 dial ins, remember they have carbs that if you packed in dry ice would give you a better number = we did that in a air box cheating........ PRO-STOCK GS

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #515 on: August 03, 2016, 07:07:56 PM »
Thanks Pops. I did some research on DA, and it seems to be more related to aviation, where the density affects not only power, but lift as well. Since lift isn't involved at the drag strip, the DA doesn't apply. That 3500' number might be cut in half, as far as HP output alone? 
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #516 on: August 03, 2016, 07:59:27 PM »
DA does apply, my .02, Bill
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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #517 on: August 03, 2016, 08:18:09 PM »
The DA is derived from the barometric pressure, the temp, and the humidity, and adds a correction factor that includes lift. For our purposes, those weather conditions should be used to predict performance variations, based on established correction values for HP alone, such as a 1% loss per 10 F increase. 
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #518 on: August 03, 2016, 08:25:11 PM »
Google DA and drag racing. ;D
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Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #519 on: August 03, 2016, 08:54:16 PM »
Ha! I googled and found a calculator right away from Drag times. Based on the weather conditions logged on my dyno test of 4500' elevation, 25.52 in/hg, 64.15 F, and 26%, the DA was 11,238'. :o :o :o
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #520 on: August 03, 2016, 09:38:01 PM »
Ha! I googled and found a calculator right away from Drag times. Based on the weather conditions logged on my dyno test of 4500' elevation, 25.52 in/hg, 64.15 F, and 26%, the DA was 11,238'. :o :o :o

And what kind of ET would you dial with that bad air??? Compare it to the 3400' Pops mentioned. Unless you make a ton of changes, you'd be as slow as a turtle. Of course nitrous oxide is the great equalizer as long as you know how much to spray based on the DA losses.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #521 on: August 03, 2016, 09:57:35 PM »
Frank, the DA of 11,238' is not nearly as bad as a real altitude of 11K+ feet; I've ridden at that elevation before, and trust me, the lack of oxygen is noticeable in lack of power as well as felt in the lungs. :o
DA is a correction factor, just like SAE or DIN, but I still don't understand how you apply it to drag racing. If a real 4500' = 11, 238' DA, then 3500' DA must be equivalent to about 1400'.
 
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #522 on: August 04, 2016, 06:05:03 AM »
Using your example of riding across the mountain, as the actual altitude increased, you experienced less and less power so to maintain the same speed you were running at a lower elevation, you probably twisted the throttle a bit more to compensate for the loss of mph. The air was not as dense at the peak of the mountain as it was at the base. Since you were dealing with an internal combustion engine that required not just fuel but a proportionate amount of air for it to operate at peak efficiency, that imbalance due to the less dense air slowed the bike down. Of course other factors were at play including barometric pressure and temperature which also impacts the oxygen content of the incoming air. That engine is struggling to make power until the tuner makes corrections for the deficiency of elevation but you can retune to bring some of that power back from the losses of high altitude, but not all. DA calculations bring into account all current weather conditions so a tuner/ racer can know exactly how it alters the "real elevation" because that internal combustion engine must now operate based whats going in through the induction system. If the DA tells me my real elevation of 190 feet above sea level is now 2500 feet, I know my bike will not run quite as fast due to a lack of oxygen and I now need to either re-jet, or change my dial in because my once efficient "pump", will struggle to produce the same output.

Offline scottly

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #523 on: August 04, 2016, 08:16:05 AM »
You simply can't replace the lack of oxygen at altitude by re-jetting. If I were you, I would put that bike on a dyno, get it jetted properly, and leave the jet box at home. ;)
This article may explain the use of DA better than I can:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0606-altitude-density-tuning/
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Time to freshen up the F Model bracket bike
« Reply #524 on: August 04, 2016, 11:13:42 AM »
You're not trying to replace it.....you're trying to adjust for it.Or the lack of less of it, less dense ,less oxygen, less oxygen, less power, rich don't make power, but a little lean does.You don't adust one way or another you simply arent using good tuning tools that are available, my .02, Bill
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