Author Topic: Lean CB750 K0  (Read 4870 times)

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kaysystems

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Lean CB750 K0
« on: July 05, 2006, 02:55:46 PM »
Last year, I suffered from the usual K0 problem of black sooty plugs.

Over the winter I lapped in all the valves, installing new guides & valve to make sure everything is good.

I cleaned the carbs, including the small brass air bleed at the carb intakes. Did this with a carb cleaner wire until I could just see fresh brass. No dirt left there. The next thing was to junk the keyster stuff & put a full set of Honda jets, needles and float valves. Set the float height to 26mm.

Replaced the Boyer ignition with points and the K0 advancer.

Wow this thing really goes now!!

But, even with the needles in the highest position the plugs are very light, almost white. Yes thay are all the same (guess that's good)

The head has been skimmed to take out a warp - let's say ten thou, and I'm on +.5mm pistons. This gives a compression of just over 9.6 to 1, according to my calcs.

Any ideas out there as o how to get the plugs a little browner? Put the floats up 2mm?

thanks

David

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 04:23:06 PM »
But, even with the needles in the highest position the plugs are very light, almost white. Yes thay are all the same (guess that's good)

Just to be clear was the clip in the highest position away from the needle tip otr the lowest position close to the needle tip?

What air filter are you using?

What spark plugs are you using?

Is your plug reading after multiple throttle position operation?  Have you done plug chops at different throttle positions?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 04:23:44 PM »
What throttle settings are resulting in the plug appearance you are seeing? Did you do plug chops at various settings to see if you are dealing with low speed vs. high speed jets, etc?
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 04:35:13 PM »
This was after a highway ride at 70mph, followed by about 1.5 miles to get home (30-40mph)

D8EA brand new plugs, stock air filter and HM300 mufflers with rear baffles (no fiberglass though)

70 mph is certainly only part throttle, so I doubt the main jets are to blame. I'm just surprised at the difference from last year. Last year I had DR8ESL plugs

David

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 04:49:39 PM »
Forgot to mention. I think I'm OK at city speeds. I didn't check the plugs, but I get a black sooty deposit around the baffles if I do only slow speed riding

David

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2006, 08:13:54 PM »
Quote
I had DR8ESL plugs

Those were resistor plugs. If you had tuned around those, changing to the correct non-resistor plugs without additional tuning could have an affect on the spark plug deposits. Notice I said, "could."  :-\
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 09:08:32 PM »
You didn't mention "setting valve clearance". After lapping in the valves, this height narrows. Did you set these? Tight valve lash can cause rich low end and lean highway mix.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 04:59:41 AM »
Hi guys.

After the new valves & guides and lapping I set the clearances. Then ran for about 150 miles & set them all again. Yes -  some of them were tight. Ignition timing is set using a strobe after setting the pont to 14 thou with the engine hot. They seem to change about a thou between hot & cold.
Perhaps & cleaned to carb air passages too well - or it's the float height.

regards

David

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 03:40:29 PM »
Sitting here thinking about all the changes since last year, there is one more.

The first two tankfulls of gas were regular this year, then on the advice of a friend I switched to 'Petro Canada' premium 94 octane. I think the plugs are lighter since this. I'm going to put regular back in for the next 3 or 4 fill-ups to see what happens.

David

K8 Scout

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 05:03:07 PM »
Has anyone got any information on Petro Canada's additive.....Tactrol.....which is a detergent that is suppose to clean out your engine as you drive???  I have been burning this fuel in my K8 and I am averaging 45 miles per gallon.....I'm just wondering if it could be causing any damage to my engine without my knowledge....Pump octane is 91....anybody know....bike seems to be running great on this stuff so far....




kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 05:11:16 PM »
I'd like to know more too. Apart from the pale plugs, it runs great. I get even better mileage - up to 55 mpg (imperial gallons). 45 US mpg?
I'm wondering if this fuel is causing my super clean plugs. I'll keep you all posted after I test some regular ESSO stuff.

But yes, the bike goes like a bat out of hell.

David


kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2006, 04:21:48 AM »
Here's an interesting quote from Petro Canada. I'm in Montreal


Tactrol does not in any way contain MTBE. In fact, Tactrol is an engine deposit control additive designed to clean your fuel system. It is, in basic terms, a detergent. MTBE is also an additive, however it is added to commercial fuels to boost octane ratings by approximately 5%. Tactrol's function is not to boost octane levels. Please note that Petro-Canada fuels do not contain Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether, with the exception of SuperClean 94 in the greater Vancouver area. Across the rest of Canada, the most common octane booster is MMT, a manganese compound which is added in trace amounts. SuperClean 94 in Montreal does contain between 5 - 10% ethyl alcohol, and the pumps are specifically identified to show that the fuel contains alcohol. This, however, is in no way to be confused with MTBE. I hope this helps. If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2006, 06:46:30 PM »
Last year, I suffered from the usual K0 problem of black sooty plugs.

Over the winter I lapped in all the valves, installing new guides & valve to make sure everything is good.

I cleaned the carbs, including the small brass air bleed at the carb intakes. Did this with a carb cleaner wire until I could just see fresh brass. No dirt left there. The next thing was to junk the keyster stuff & put a full set of Honda jets, needles and float valves. Set the float height to 26mm.

Replaced the Boyer ignition with points and the K0 advancer.

Wow this thing really goes now!!

But, even with the needles in the highest position the plugs are very light, almost white. Yes thay are all the same (guess that's good)

The head has been skimmed to take out a warp - let's say ten thou, and I'm on +.5mm pistons. This gives a compression of just over 9.6 to 1, according to my calcs.

Any ideas out there as o how to get the plugs a little browner? Put the floats up 2mm?

thanks

David

Raising the floats will definitely darken the plugs, across the whole RPM range. If it's OK in town, with darker plugs, then white on the highway, also try this: remove the gas petcock from the tank and take it apart. Inside, you may find that the passages have narrowed from crud that we've all had in the gas for about the last 10 years. You should be able to pass a 5/64" or 3/16" drill through all the holes, or use it to clean them out.

A particular problem on the K series with petcocks is the front feed tube: it runs leaner than the rear tube when on RESERVE, causing the 2 cylinders attached to run a little lean. That's why your manual says, "...run at reduced speed while on reserve tank setting...". I know of at least one K0 that burned the #2 exhaust valve over this issue, because we used to tour together at 100+ MPH, and one day his turned up with a power loss after his reserve was almost empty in Arizona. That winter's teardown showed the valve.

An associated problem with the lean tube is crud buildup: it builds up faster in the slower-moving tube, making the situation worse.
After you have checked this out, here's a little "performance tip" that we Production Roadracers used to use on the "big four": drill 2 holes in the lower front of the airbox that will tightly fit the air balance tubes from the carbs, on the front side, toward the left side of the box (away from the inlet slot) (I'll try to get a pix of mine on here.). These 2 tubes come out of the 2 center carbs, where they are all connected together, and end up in short hoses that usually go over the top of the airbox. Sticking the hoses into the airbox instead will pull a little vacuum in the float bowls at high engine speeds and raise the float levels, which also raises the top end power...  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2006, 07:15:46 PM »
Quote
causing the 2 cylinders attached to run a little lean.

Not sure I follow? Aren't all cyclinder fed by either the "run" or "reserve?"
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2006, 07:41:54 PM »
Quote
causing the 2 cylinders attached to run a little lean.

Not sure I follow? Aren't all cyclinder fed by either the "run" or "reserve?"

The "run" is a vertical tube that feeds one port of the switchable valve, the "reserve" is just the top open end of the valve, and it feeds another port. So, when the fuel drops below the tube's height, the "run" is empty. Honda tried to balance the hydrostatic head a little by making the "reserve" feed hole bigger, but there's little head to work with on "reserve".

The petcock has 2 outlet hoses: one goes to the left 2 carbs in a "T" between them, and the other to the right 2 carbs, same "T" style. The lean side of the petcock is the pipe that is furthest from the little "reserve" opening in the shutoff valve: the fuel has a little bit of difficulty passing over the "bouncing" fluid column in the nearer one to get to the other one. So, it tends to feed more from one side than the other.

If you have a spare petcock, pull it apart and you'll see why. If there's more interest, I could pix one up and make an FAQ of it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2006, 08:04:09 PM »
Thanks, I do have a spare, but never examined it that closely. Next time I'm out in the garage I wll. Having rarely gone on reserve, I guess I never noticed even when I did.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline techy5025

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2006, 10:02:08 PM »
This discussion brings up an interesting point. At one hundred miles per hour,
and assuming about 30 miles per gallon at that speed, one gallon of gas has to
drain in about 20 minutes ....through one entry hole in the petcock. For a
quarter inch hole or so that would seem to tax the flow rate....especially at
low fuel levels with lowered head.

....pondering.  :o

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2006, 05:11:24 AM »
I have a new petcock.

I have noticed that if I run too long on reserve, it misfires.

I'll check it out.

David

K8 Scout

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2006, 09:24:45 AM »
So, tactrol is cleaning my jets as it passes thru them???  A detergent that doesn't seem to be harming by engine is a good thing I guess....all I know is the bike runs great on this stuff...Thanks for the info on what petrocan is putting into their fuel...I run around the edmonton area so I have not seen any super clean fuel here yet.

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2006, 02:42:19 PM »
The saga continues.

Las week I only rode about 100 mile, to work & back. Highway 90%.

This morning I filled up with regular gas (ESSO). About half a tank. Meaning that I had half a tank of Petro Canada 94 Octane with 'Tactrol'

So I have a nice mixture in there. This morning I rode for 80 mile with my wife on the back, 30-50mph. Then I went to work & back using my normal rout & speed. The plugs are brown at the tip, and pretty black inside.

I'm going to fill up with regular & do some more testing. I expect to have really black plugs after I purge all the petro Canada stuff.

David

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2006, 04:45:35 PM »
This is worth a read
http://www.silvercliff.com/tech/techgas.html

Although it is about Snowmobile engines there are interesting points about using ethanol with carburated engines. Possibly electronic fuel injected cars don't suffer as they have sensors everywhere.

I think I'll keep away from Ethanol for the moment.

David

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2006, 05:47:39 PM »
This is worth a read
http://www.silvercliff.com/tech/techgas.html

Although it is about Snowmobile engines there are interesting points about using ethanol with carburated engines. Possibly electronic fuel injected cars don't suffer as they have sensors everywhere.

I think I'll keep away from Ethanol for the moment.

David

Keep in mind, Dave, that most snowmobiles are 2-stroke. And, yes, ethanol is harder on 2 -strokers. About the worst it does to our vintage bikes is to promote water collection in the carb's float bowls. In cold weather, run a little of that "gas drier" stuff to suck that out (methanol).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2006, 05:57:16 PM »
But what about my snow white plugs when using the ethanol? That can't be good. The difference is amazing between the ethanol & regular.

David

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2006, 09:11:52 PM »
But what about my snow white plugs when using the ethanol? That can't be good. The difference is amazing between the ethanol & regular.

David

The ethanol has a little cleaning effect, but not so much that it could clean the plugs that much. It acts like an octane booster when mixed into gas, that's it's main advantage. That may help explain the extra MPG you're getting with it. Does the engine run noticeably hotter, or ping, surge or stumble? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. After 88k+ touring miles on mine, with all the weird gas problems I encountered, it never burned a valve or piston from any of it. I think Honda did a pretty good job of conservative design on this, their first superbike. (Then, there was the (in)famous 750 V4...)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2006, 05:31:54 AM »
After seeing the white plugs, I raised the needles. I don't notice any extra heat. It idles slower, but seems to run just fine.

I was just really worried that using this gas, which has the ethanol plus an extra 50% cleaning agent, my plugs are so white.

If I continue to use it, should I leave the needles up?

Thanks

David

K8 Scout

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2006, 09:45:13 PM »
Thanks for the link with the interesting information....even if it is a 2 stroke engine....My K8 is still liking that petro-can fuel....running great and decent mileage...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2006, 06:40:58 PM »
After seeing the white plugs, I raised the needles. I don't notice any extra heat. It idles slower, but seems to run just fine.

I was just really worried that using this gas, which has the ethanol plus an extra 50% cleaning agent, my plugs are so white.

If I continue to use it, should I leave the needles up?

Thanks

David

It may not hurt anything to run a little richer in the midrange (needles), but keep an eye on your exhausr pipes, right where they straighten out slightly after the first exit turn. If you run too rich, the fuel is still burning on the way out, and the pipes will start to turn blue or yellow. I don't know why the plugs would be white, but I don't know what the additive is in the gas that you're using, either.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

kaysystems

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Re: Lean CB750 K0
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2006, 06:49:36 PM »
After seeing the white plugs, I raised the needles. I don't notice any extra heat. It idles slower, but seems to run just fine.

I was just really worried that using this gas, which has the ethanol plus an extra 50% cleaning agent, my plugs are so white.

If I continue to use it, should I leave the needles up?

Thanks

David

It may not hurt anything to run a little richer in the midrange (needles), but keep an eye on your exhausr pipes, right where they straighten out slightly after the first exit turn. If you run too rich, the fuel is still burning on the way out, and the pipes will start to turn blue or yellow. I don't know why the plugs would be white, but I don't know what the additive is in the gas that you're using, either.

Just to be safe I went back to ordinary gas. Needles up one notch. Lovely brown plugs after a quick 70mph blast. I'll stay away from the Petro Canada stuff.

Thanks HondaMan

David