Author Topic: 750 Oil Pump Question  (Read 3370 times)

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Offline JohnG

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750 Oil Pump Question
« on: September 28, 2012, 07:33:23 PM »
Can anyone tell me what keeps the oil in the tank from draining into the engine while a 750 is parked?

I am guessing the pump has some kind of check valve in it.

My understanding of the pump is that it is really two pumps - one for pumping oil up to the tank from the bottom of the motor, and the other for pumping oil from the tank thru the engine.

The tank itself seems to have no valves in it.

   thanks!
   John   -  '76 750F
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline Elan

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 07:39:48 PM »
ya theres a valve in the pump to stop it the oil from just draining into the crankcase. I know cause mine is broken and i always have all the oil in my crankcase ;D
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Offline JohnG

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 07:54:41 PM »
I run an oil pressure gauge.  The other day I got on it to go to work.  The pressure was up and down and up and down so I turned around and parked it.  The tank was pretty much empty based on the dipstick.  A week before I had checked the oil level after riding it and it was just a tad under Full.

So it sounds like this valve is not working in my case . . .  is it replacable?  I have other pumps I can steal from. 
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 08:11:35 PM »
The 'valve' is a rubber check valve with a long spring, in the bottom of the pump. In my book, I outline how to take it apart and check or fix it. Most of the time, since the rubber is a little hard from the years, it must be nice and clean or it won't seal well. They often have tiny chunks of [something or other] in them that either makes the rubber face not seal very well, or makes the plug stick in the slightly-open position, causing it to drain the tank in a few hours.

Often (even when the bikes were pretty new), use of high-detergent, 10w40 oils makes this situation much worse. Use 20w50 oils, or 20w40 in winter (15w40 or 15w50 if you ride a lot in cold weather) so the body of the oil helps to seal this port.

You can remove the pump by dropping the bottom pan, where you will find 3 bolts holding it up in the engine. Replace the 3 O-rings on the locator dowels when you do this: they are often hard now, and also leak some. There is another O-ring just like those in the end of the stopper valve's channel: they are all 15x2.5 mm size. Take off the end cap, remove the spring and plug, clean well inside and the parts. Reassemble with new O-rings, see if that helps: it often does.

The rubber plug (valve) is NLA from Honda, and I haven't made the aftermarket versions yet. But I will...  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline JohnG

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 04:58:36 AM »
Thanks much! Sounds like a copy of your book is in my future.

In the meantime I am hoping to still ride it if I let it idle for a bit  (5 min ?)  to get the oil level to stabilize before it sees any RPMs.  Does that sound reasonable?
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline slartybartfarst

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 12:48:19 AM »
I have run  a 69 K0 for 25 years if its parked up for a week the oil level in the tank will drop to 1/2, its in the sump.

Obviuosly the oil system has a scavenge pump and much as a bilge pump does with water on a boat it rapidly picks up the excesss oil.

If you remove the dip stick and you can see the level your safe to start, on start up you will see how fast it rises, if it does not then you could have a sticking return valve.

If you leave the bike for longer or are concerned about oil starvation, thumb the starter with the kill switch off until the oil light goes out before starting  (although be aware dont sit there endlessly as the starter is only designed for short bursts ) to save the starter you can kick it over after first using the starter as well to get the pressure up, it takes a few kicks for sure but you know the engine has its oil feed ready to go.

As mentioned above the face seal of the valve is probably hardnened but i have also found slightly bent pump bodies and burred up valve bodies on other engines due to cack handed mechanicing.

My experiance is even with a perfect pump and seal there is some drainage into the sump so the above startup routine is usefull and it is always better for an engine to have oil presssure primed on a cold start after a lay up.

So just remove the dip stick sight the oil level in the tank, prime the pressure to the oil light going out and on startup see the level rise and you will have peace of mind before riding.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 12:50:59 AM by slartybartfarst »

Offline bryanj

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 01:30:12 AM »
If you are in a colder climate, like here in the UK, 20w50 is not a good idea as its a bit thick till warm and the cam doesn't get as much oil as it should, but tjis was when the engines were new and ridden harder from cold so it does depend where yoou are and how you treat it
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 10:10:01 AM »
I sourced a NOS 'rubber plug' from a guy in Thailand that had some as well as the springs, etc.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 11:16:00 AM »
I sourced a NOS 'rubber plug' from a guy in Thailand that had some as well as the springs, etc.

Oooo! Got his info? Need some. Like, 6 of them...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline JohnG

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2012, 11:45:16 AM »
thanks, Jerry!

Now I have a low mileage parts bike which I just took the oil pump out of to get a start learning something.

The pump has two passageways on the bottom.  One has a 14 mm cap on it and a small  (maybe 10mm) metal piston inside, no rubber like components.  The other has a cap held on by 2 phillips head screws.  Inside is a piston more like 18 mm.  The inner end of the piston has a rubber like cap on it (15166-300-000)

Is this the critter that causes such problems??    The one I just removed is pristine and pretty pliable. No chips or dings in it.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree??

Other:  I use 20W50 oil.  Just ordered a copy of Hondaman's book.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 06:03:52 PM by JohnG »
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2012, 12:53:10 PM »
subscribing
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Kevin D

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2012, 06:17:58 PM »
Make sure the leak stopper plunger moves back and forth freely and seats properly.
71 CB750 K1
104,000 miles
Original Owner
———past———
70 SL100/125/150
70 Candy BlueGreen CB 750 K0
————————————————-
Former Honda parts kid/counter kid/do all
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Offline JohnG

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2012, 07:08:08 PM »
great info, Kevin - many thanks!                John
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2012, 07:14:43 PM »
Original spring



new NOS spring



As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2012, 08:06:21 PM »
So my engine wet sumos completely in short order. I pulled the oil pump. Does the checkvalve stopper close off the port that it is adjacent too? Seems like it would. Mine is completely open.
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1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Kevin D

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 04:02:13 AM »
Quote
Mine is completely open

Yes, it is supposed to close that port off and seat on the opposite side.
Mine was stuck open too. There was interference between the plunger and the bore. It cleaned up nicely with some 220? grit paper.

Quote
hack handed mechanic
I'm pretty sure I caused that to happen with a ham handed prior rebuild. On my oil pump the adjacent dowel doesn't have the usual slip fit into the pump. This time I was sure to start with the dowel in the engine case, not in the pump, when reassembling and it went together fine. You can see that the dowel in question sits higher than the other two.

I have only seen one CB750 oil pump - this one - so I don't know if that dowel is one of a kind screwed up or if they are all like mine. Is yours the same?

« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 04:29:21 AM by Kevin D »
71 CB750 K1
104,000 miles
Original Owner
———past———
70 SL100/125/150
70 Candy BlueGreen CB 750 K0
————————————————-
Former Honda parts kid/counter kid/do all
—————————————————————-
Whether you think you can or think you can’t, you’re right
Genius is 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 06:25:16 AM »
Thanks Kevin! i confirmed this with 2 spare pumps I have, high mileage, but the stopper valves are across the port sealing it off, as you say.

AS to the dowels, they are all the same part number, though you probably know this. Hadn't noticed that one rides higher in the pump. Shouldn't be a problem.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline JohnG

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 10:31:02 AM »
I'm the guy who began the thread . . . oil pressure all over the place on start up.

Have not started the bike in over a week due to frequent rain here in MA.  Had a little time this morning so I decided to watch what was going on.

Just sitting, there was not enough oil to touch the dipstick, although I could see oil in the bottom of the tank.  With the bike on the centerstand I started it up and set it to an idle about 1800-2000 RPM.  Oil pressure was ok.  The interesting thing was that it took about 15 minutes before the oil level in the tank stabilized.  The last time I had checked it after riding it 20 miles, the level was about 1/2 way between the high and low marks on the dipstick  (this a couple weeks ago).  I screw the dipstick in the check it - I  think that is correct.

As I said, it took 15 minutes of idling to get back to that.  I then rode it 20 miles to work and checked it again. Same level.

So what I learned was   a) yes I do lose oil into the engine while parked   b) getting things back to normal is not instantaneous.

It will be parked for  8 hours while I am at work so I will check it when I go home before starting it and see how much the level dropped in that time.

My long term goal in a couple weeks is to take the oil pump out and check everything I can.  The oil pump is only a few years old  (NOS at the time) so I will be curious to see how rubber parts look more than metal wear.
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline MCRider

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 10:52:28 AM »
I'm the guy who began the thread . . . oil pressure all over the place on start up.

Have not started the bike in over a week due to frequent rain here in MA.  Had a little time this morning so I decided to watch what was going on.

Just sitting, there was not enough oil to touch the dipstick, although I could see oil in the bottom of the tank.  With the bike on the centerstand I started it up and set it to an idle about 1800-2000 RPM.  Oil pressure was ok.  The interesting thing was that it took about 15 minutes before the oil level in the tank stabilized.  The last time I had checked it after riding it 20 miles, the level was about 1/2 way between the high and low marks on the dipstick  (this a couple weeks ago).  I screw the dipstick in the check it - I  think that is correct.

As I said, it took 15 minutes of idling to get back to that.  I then rode it 20 miles to work and checked it again. Same level.

So what I learned was   a) yes I do lose oil into the engine while parked   b) getting things back to normal is not instantaneous.

It will be parked for  8 hours while I am at work so I will check it when I go home before starting it and see how much the level dropped in that time.

My long term goal in a couple weeks is to take the oil pump out and check everything I can.  The oil pump is only a few years old  (NOS at the time) so I will be curious to see how rubber parts look more than metal wear.
Thanks for that. Wow a NOS a few years ago, that's quite a find. 

One thing I've been harping on for some time now is the issue of age v use. Used to be we could say a low mileage bike or part was something to be had. The value of low mileage has dwindled considearbaly as old age really takes its toll. A new part, cable, valve, (oilpump?) can be corroded from condensation cycles just sitting on a shelf. Rubber bits, side covers etc lose their flexibility by out gassing their chemicals that keep them soft. etc.  So its all junk and requires TLC to get back on the road. Or reproduced parts that look old but are really new. (Thanks Joe!)
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline JohnG

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 12:07:52 PM »
I agree . . . having an NOS pump was good but those rubber components, like the one discussed earlier in this thread, were  still sitting there aging.

Comparable thing in the old-car world:  an old NOS fuel pump would be regarded with some suspicion due to the age of the diaphram.

Later:  checked the oil level after the bike sat in the parking lot for 7-8 hours.  It was down maybe 1/8".  Doesn't sound like much until you think of it over a week and then alot of oil will be gone, as I found.

Other:   received Hondaman's book today.  if you don't own it, then find a way to own it!!  The near lifetime of experience, information and wisdom he has packed in it make it well worth every penny and more.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 01:34:00 PM by JohnG »
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline toomaas

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 02:30:27 AM »
Hi all - I've posted this in a topic that's pretty old, so here's a cross post on a newer one...

I've stripped a K4 oil pump down to replace all and anything rubber - including the very pesky 11x15x3 oil seal. When I manage to get it out it'll need a replacement. Any advice on how to get it out and where to find a replacement would be most welcome!

I'm also thinking that I'll need to replace the (possibly collapsed) oil hoses and found some with a supplier in Japan (yamiya750)

But at around $330.00 I'm wondering how easy it is just to use the old attachments on new hose...?

Cheers,

Tom

Offline KRMK3

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 05:51:51 AM »
Hi all - I've posted this in a topic that's pretty old, so here's a cross post on a newer one...

I've stripped a K4 oil pump down to replace all and anything rubber - including the very pesky 11x15x3 oil seal. When I manage to get it out it'll need a replacement. Any advice on how to get it out and where to find a replacement would be most welcome!

I'm also thinking that I'll need to replace the (possibly collapsed) oil hoses and found some with a supplier in Japan (yamiya750)

But at around $330.00 I'm wondering how easy it is just to use the old attachments on new hose...?

Cheers,

Tom

The oil pump shaft seal is still available as part ref: 91208-MN1-771. On checking, David Silver in the UK can get them and CMSNL show them as available. I guess you should be able to source a seal more locally though through a classic Honda dealer.
As far as the oil pipes go, my old ones were suspect so I changed them for a braided stainless steel set from Thomas Quast of Classic Cycle City in Germany, also purchasing the excellent heavy duty primary chains and Tsubaki (camelia) cam chain from him at the same time. The oil pipes come with original style fittings so look neat. I have to say that the oil pipes look great when fitted and really set the bike off. You should be able to find him on ebay Germany as he has an on-line ebay shop. 
   Hope this helps you !
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 06:08:01 AM by KRMK3 »

Offline toomaas

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Re: 750 Oil Pump Question
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 08:23:13 PM »
That's great - thanks for the advice. I've just been told (on another post) that the same oil seal was used on the GL 100 Goldwing, so that should make tracking a little easier. I'll have a look at the hoses from Thomas Quast - I've also seen some braided stainless on 'Carpy's' website, minus the fittings - pretty cheap at US99.00 for the pair.... The stainless would look pretty sharp...