Author Topic: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - If only spring would get here...  (Read 147668 times)

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Offline hondamatteo

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2012, 11:46:24 PM »
I bought a cheapo infrared thermometer on eBay for my plating kit. Hopefully it works. Just got my kit today but still need to source me a heater.
'74 CB350F

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2012, 10:10:24 PM »
So I was able to put pretty much a full day in the man room today. I dug right into zinc plating and I'd say it was a success. Here are the pics I promised:


The manual suggests you start out by practice plating what will become your tank bar to hang your parts from. Here is my degreasing solution working on the copper pipe that I buffed with 000 scotchbrite and then a quick buff with brown compound and my cloth wheel in a drill.


Meanwhile I have to get the electrolyte solution ready.


Ingredients of the electrolyte solution. I wasn't sure how much to use at first but after some figuring (manual wasn't super clear on this) I figured out you use all of the Part A and Part B and only a teaspoon of the brightener.


Electrolyte ready to go.


Preparing the anodes with the manual's suggested method. You bend the strip up and over the pail rim so you have a place to attach your leads. If you put a wire down into the solution it will be slowly dissolved away since the anode is losing particles.


Degreased tank bar ... notice the lines the solution left. I was worried this might be a problem but it turns out that it wasn't.


Tank bar ready to be plated. Negative to the part, positive to the zinc anode. Make sure the anodes don't make contact with the parts or tank bar and create a short!


Zinc began to collect almost immediately.


.07amps / square inch .... I calculated the area and I included the inside area (wasn't sure about that) ... realized later I was using enough amperage for the whole bar but was only able to fit about 2/3 of it in the pail at once.


The bar emerges with zinc on it! Looks like #$%* .... uh oh. I was worried.


Doesn't look so good.


Quick polish with 000 steel wool (like 30 seconds) and it looks great! I was amazed!


The liquid level line.


So lets try the other side!


A little less amps this time.


My package came from All Balls. Woohoo!


I was a bit worried about this transition line.




But it buffed out for the mots part. I could have buffed it out completely I'm sure with a bit more effort but the tank bar is just going to get marked up anyway.


Parts for the first real run ... they actually look pretty good to begin with ...


But on closer inspection they are in not the best shape. Pretty oxidized.


I scrubbed all the parts with a 0 scotchbrite pad and hung them with copper wire on my newly plated tank bar. Note: I flattened the ends of the tank bar so it would sit better on the pail edge.


Degrease at 180F ish.


Beginning to zinc plate.


Calculated the area of each piece ... pain in the @ss. Worked out to 3.5A or so.


The lovely oxidized looking parts fresh out of the pot.


Closeup of a rear wheel bearings spacer.


All polished up with 000 steel wool. Looks great!


Wanted to try my drill with fabric wheel and compound but my drill immediately died.


So I stuck with the 000 steel wool and the parts look great. The axle is a big improvement. You'll have to take my word for it since I didn't take before pics. ha


To help remember where some of this sh!t goes I took a pic.


Another batch done. Really happy with this one.


I figured out I can polish the bolts much better if I stick em in the drill. They are just about chrome-like.


The last batch I did for the night. I polished these up too but forgot to take pics.


It may not look like I did a whole bunch of parts .... but let me tell you, it's a lot of work! Some of the steps you have to take to get a good finish:

1) Make sure the part is very clean to begin with so a good scrubbing in the parts washer is needed if it hasn't been done already to get rid of any dirt/grease.

2) Any oxidation or rust must be removed so the zinc can adhere well to the surface. I asked Caswell and they said plating over existing zinc is no problem so long as the old zinc is still adhered well. I used scotchbrite pads, a wire wheel, and steel wool to do the initial prep.

3) If there are any scratches or pits they must be buffed or repaired now because the zinc doesn't hide any surface defects.

4) Wire up the parts to your tank bar so they don't touch the bottom and are fully submerged.

5) Degrease parts at 150-190F for at least 5 mins. Mist water onto part to confirm it is degreased. If it sheets off it is degreased ... if it beads up then try again. Rinse parts off after degreasing.

6) Calculate the area of all your parts and figure out the amperage settings you will need.

7) Start up circulation pump and heat up electrolyte to 110F and immerse parts. Ensure the parts aren't contacting the bottom, the anodes, or the heater.

8 ) Positive to the zinc anodes (both of them!) and negative to the tank bar. Set up power supply for correct amperage. Start plating ... plate for 20-30min.

9) Remove parts and rinse.

10) Remove wires and begin the arduous task of polishing the grey tarnish (oxidation?) off the part. I used 000 steel wool and it seemed to work pretty well. A buffing wheel and compound would probably work well too.


So as you can see it's a pretty involved process but it's pretty nifty. I'm glad I picked up this kit. Maybe at some point I could even make a bit of cash on the side with it. I think if a guy was going to do large lots of parts he would want to either get a set of tumblers or vibratory polishers etc to do the prep and final buffing. Doing all that work by hand gets real old real quick. Hopefully tomorrow I can pump out a few more parts and maybe start putting some #$%* back on my frame! lol

IW
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 06:40:17 PM by iron_worker »

Offline hondamatteo

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2012, 05:41:56 PM »
Those look great!! Getting very excited to try mine out! I also got some blue\clear chromate which is supposed to help stop future corrosion.
'74 CB350F

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2012, 07:45:24 PM »
Thanks. Good luck with your plating. Let me know if you have any questions ... not that I'm an expert. ha

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2012, 07:58:31 PM »
Today I felt like being constructive rather than plating. I kinda burned myself out on plating yesterday so I started putting things together (and plating a bit).


Side stand back on with plated spring and hardware... thank you to whoever invented this little trick. It's a knuckle saver.


Getting the electrics back on the battery box. New fuse box vs old.


My safety starting unit connector was looking a bit weathered...


So I pulled it apart and wire wheeled the terminals.


New battery box mounting rubbers and rubber battery pads.


Complete electrics tray ... notice I put the mounting rubbers on upside down. ha


Next project... caliper assembly.


A little high temp grease on the friction points.


Refer to manual...




Beautiful! Wait... also backwards. lol


Ah there we go. Just like the picture.


Steering stem lock back in place. Didn't bother plating these itty bitty pieces.


Rider foot pegs back together. Took a bit of mind bending.


Put a coat of 50:50 paint thinner/linseed oil on the plastic parts to shine em up.


Got a little creative with my thermometer mounting... much better than a clamp. lol


Stuff to plate and remember what goes with what.




Cleaned up and wired up. Ready to plate.


Meanwhile ... Springs always make things tricky.


Lovely fresh zinc'ed parts.


Ah ha! Some grease on the friction points and it should be good as new. Yes i reused the old pads ... they had so much material I couldn't junk them.


Don't forget the felt seal.


Another batch out of the pot.


After a quick polish.


Dang. Those look good.


After putting my rubbers the right way round I got it all in place. Looks awesome with the fresh hardware.


After some more spring wrestling I got this thing back on too. Greased up and working smooth.


Seat latch back on too.


Some other sh!t that's back together but not quite ready to put it on. I plated the hardware from the air box as well.

So as you can see I put in a good chunk of time this weekend and I'm pretty pleased with my results. Stuff should start coming together now pretty quickly. I need some fork oil and I can put my forks back together. Once that is done I can pretty much get the entire front end together. I can also start working getting the swing arm back together.

And of course I have to tear into that motor and build a crate to ship my cylinders/head/crank away to CycleX. Would be nice to get that away before xmas...

IW
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 06:46:54 PM by iron_worker »

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2012, 12:35:54 PM »
The manual states I need 220-230cc (7.0-7.3oz) of premium quality oil of SAE 10W-30 grade.

Sounds like just plain old motor oil to me? Should I go out and buy Honda fork oil for probably 5x the price?

IW

Offline dave500

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2012, 12:21:43 AM »
at first just use what ever engine oil your going to use in the bike,then once youve ridden it youll feel if its too heavy or light then its easy to drain it and use something else,anything from atf to hydraulic oil and motor oils will be fine.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2012, 06:31:14 AM »
Good to know Dave. I've got some nice synthetic Rotella 0w40 left over from when I had an EVO so maybe I'll try that.

IW

Offline UK Pete

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2012, 06:55:15 AM »
Great work IW, love the attention to detail, with my zinc plating kit the items come out shiney with no need to polish, have you tried adding some more brightner solution?
Pete

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2012, 06:57:35 AM »
I only added the first teaspoon as the manual suggested. I will try adding a bit more and see what happens. Would be nice if I didn't have to polish so much!

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2012, 11:02:12 AM »
I took the "nameplate" (for lack of a better term) out of the little indicator panel so I could paint it (#7 from this diagram: http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750-four-k4-usa_model482/partslist/F++03.html#results).

Are the nameplates available for purchase? I somewhat crinkled mine and I think it's faded from years of being in the sun.

IW

Offline UncleD

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2012, 05:55:06 PM »

Offline dave500

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »
looking bloody good iron man!the plating looks to be going well and really gives that detailed finish overall.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #113 on: December 15, 2012, 06:29:51 PM »
Thanks for the link about the nameplates. I already went and glued mine back on though. ha Hopefully it won't bug me for all eternity that it's slightly crinkled.

I got at er a little bit in the man room today. My cousin came over and helped me get the rubber off my wheels and also we tore into the top end. No pics of the process cause we were busy given 'er... but here are the results.


Rubberless wheels. Front rim is in good shape. Rear rim is not so good. Not sure what I'll do about it yet.


Top end off. You can see slight scoring on the piston skirts. No nail grabbers but I think it's enough for me to just go for the +.25mm overbore kit.


Blurry ... a slight disaster going on in the man room. Trying to keep everything laid out roughly how it came off.


The top end looks to be in great shape. Journals are all very uniform and no scoring or gouging.


Cam looks in pretty good shape too but will probably be replaced to go a bit hotter...  8)


There is wear on the rockers but it's very even and smooth.


My plugs looked tan near the tips but if I took a light and looked down near the base of the porcelain it looked like I may have been a bit lean? This might explain my lack of power on the top end. I'm thinking maybe due to my fuel filters?


Cylinders look pretty good. The marks you see are just staining.


You can see slight scoring in this one. The over bore is looking like a good idea.


Closer view of the scoring.


I'm really happy with how clean the top end is/was.


All the combustion chambers have even carbon deposits indicating it's making power on all four.


Some build up but not unusual I don't think.


Cam chain sliders are in great shape but rock hard. These will be replaced.


Nearly all my gaskets came off in one piece.... I couldn't believe it!


Believe it or not this is before I cleaned it!


I cleaned everything up and I put a coating of fresh oil on the cam and rocker parts so they don't start to rust while they sit.


This is why I love having a 20gal parts washer. The head and the cylinders are soaking away nicely under there. I'll leave them overnight to really break up the grime.

Hopefully I can get some more done tomorrow. I'm not sure if I want to carry on and split the cases or go back and get some zinc plating done or reassemble my forks and front end ... OR OR OR... lol

Lots to do and only roughly 4 months of winter left! I'll likely send my cylinders, head, and crank to cycle x early in the new year. I'll have to build a crate so they don't get damaged on the way.

IW

« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 06:52:48 PM by iron_worker »

Offline rusty2078

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #114 on: December 15, 2012, 10:36:10 PM »
Good Times. If your looking for good degreaser on the cheap...Easy Off Oven Cleaner works freaking amazing! I just tried it on my '77 engine (that looked like it hadn't been pressure washed since new). Spray on, leave it sit for about 20 minutes, then rinse and repeat as necessary. Did wonders on the baked on "varnish" from oil on the inside of the cases as well. looks like everything's going well for you.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2012, 06:13:08 PM »
Thanks for the tip. I think I will probably get the cases and covers bead blasted. Anyone know if bead blasting affects machined surfaces ... such as the valve cover gasket area or the area where the cylinders meet the cases (base gasket area)? Should I protect these areas somehow before sending them off?

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2012, 06:29:45 PM »
Another pretty solid day of progress. Decided to go back to the path of rebuild and reassemble rather than continue with the tear down of the motor. I need to make a bit more shelf space by putting some parts back on the bike and I think I've done that now.


New tapered roller bearing from All Balls vs. old ... note I had to cut it off with a dremel.


Me measuring the stackup .... incorrectly.


Still incorrect.


Still don't have it right.


Ok now we're getting somewhere. Stack them up in the same order as if they were going on the bike. This is upside down since this is for the lower neck bearing. Make sure to get the old seal and shim in place to compare to. My K4 needed the thinner spacer.


My "bench grinder with wire wheel attachment"... variable speed and everything! lol  :o


Plating some airbox pieces and some steering stem pieces.


Fixing to put the airbox back together...


New seal, new velocity stacks, zinced clamps and hardware, proper wingnut bolts. New screws for the old clamps.




Make sure that seal fits in all the way around.


I used to have flat head style screws that were a huge PITA to remove. This willl be much nicer.


Pretty sure these aren't supposed to be zinc plated but it looks cool I think.


Not sure if I'll attempt to fix my cracked intake or not.


Lower triple out of the freezer and the bearing goes on nicely. I used the fat spacer that I didn't require to tap it down.


Upper triple on as well. New races driven into the stem carefully with a brass hammer.


On to the forks! New chrome caps and o-rings.


New seals from all balls ... I'm really not sure if I put these in the right way. It was really had to tell. Also note the nicely zinc'ed snap rings... ooo pretty.


Motor oil is about .9g/cc and I need 220-230cc sooooo 206g puts me right in the neighborhood.


Taped my socket so as not to gall up my new chrome fork caps.


Wow! New tubes, new seals, new chrome caps & o-rings, re-zinc'ed hadware, and fresh 0w-40 synthetic oil!


Continuing with the front end...New grommets to go inside the ears and one new chrome rib to replace the cracked one.


New fork gaitors. Axle in place to help align.


Those chrome rings were a b!tch to get on ... I hope I did it right.


Put in the inner plastic fender.


Starting to look like what I'll see when going down the road. Sweet!


So I made some good progress today. The frame is starting to get much heavier! lol Hopefully I can get the engine torn down after the new year and then I'll have to get the frame up on the bike hoist again. 

I'm definitely pleased with my progress today. It's good to see things going back together again.

IW
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:21:11 PM by iron_worker »

Offline Tews19

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2012, 08:24:59 PM »
Great work. You figure out how you will get it out side when assembled?
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline UK Pete

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2012, 11:29:46 PM »
Well done IW, you have been very busy, keep up the good work
Pete

Offline DME

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #119 on: December 17, 2012, 03:48:36 AM »
Good job and nice progress!

Sad to say though, but i believe you put in the forkseals the wrong way.... the spring visible in the pics should be on the inside of the leg (pressure side).

/Dan

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2012, 07:11:12 AM »
Flippin those seals is not going to be fun! ah!!!

*edit* After doing a bit of research about what DME said ... He is correct. The spring that holds the seal to the fork tube surface is generally supposed to be towards the pressure side. This is the primary seal. The spring gives a light initial tension and the pressure from inside the shock body as it is being compressed actually forces the lip seal on harder. The way I have it the pressure will actually open up the seal which is obviously no good....

This is a good picture of it. http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/pics/q/u/qu21505_800.jpg

So I bought one of these: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8105256/Pullers-And-Bearing-Tools/3-Jaw-Bearing-Puller

Hopefully I can pull the seal out without wrecking it. Otherwise I'm waiting for a couple weeks for new ones I guess.

IW
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 11:21:11 AM by iron_worker »

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2012, 07:20:11 AM »
As far as getting it down ... I think this time I'll just take it down in more manageable chunks: complete front end, rear wheel & swing arm, engine & frame, exhaust, seat, tank, all the other bits. I have a friend who can deadlift 605lb and squat 405lb so I will be calling on him again. lol

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2012, 08:02:47 PM »
Well still at it. I got those fork seals flipped. Didn't actually take that long since I didn't take the front end all apart but just slid the fork bodies down off the tubes while still mounted in the triples. My bearing puller worked pretty well however it did slightly kink the little spring on the seal... I've just decided that I'll run em as is and if they leak then I'll change em later on down the road. Can't be any worse than what it was. lol


Here is where I started tonight. You can see I managed to get one of the studs out here with the double nut technique. Wrench on, first nut on, 2nd nut on, (with flanges facing each other), use impact to tighten them together, then try to reverse them out with the wrench on the bottom nut. I had decent success with this method but still was left with 4 stubborn ones.


Something interesting I found... as I took the pistons off the rod this just fell out. Pretty sure it's not from how I disassembled the engine. You'll notice that this piston had slightly different coloration. Is it possible that this cylinder wasn't getting full compression? I never did do a compression test. My top end also seemed to be around 100-105mph while in good tune so I was down on power.


Another view.


The back side. You can see the scoring on the pistons pretty well here.


Got the springs and guide seals all removed and stored away. head is stripped and ready to shipped out.


Cylinders stripped and ready to go as well.


#$%*ty pic of the scoring.


Better pic of the other two cylinders.


And this is where I left it tonight. You can see the b@stard studs that I couldn't get. The one I even tried the bending technique but it just felt like it might snap off so I stopped. I will get a stud extractor and hope that works better.


Got the points cover, points plate, advancer, and clutch cover off.


Also got the shifter mechanism cover off. No gasket on this one just silicone... hmmm.


Gotta get the alternator cover off and disassemble the shifter mechanism... then the cases should be just about read to split I think. scary!


*Here is to hoping that a stud extractor gets those remaining studs out. They are stubborn as hell! I mangled several of the head stud nuts getting the other ones out too. I hope  new ones come with the stud kit?

IW
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:24:44 PM by iron_worker »

Offline UK Pete

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2012, 01:44:50 AM »
Shame about those studs IW, i have removed 3 sets of these and there are alway a couple that wont budge, i usually end up heating the case around the stud , then while applying tension using the double nut technique i keep tapping the top of stud , if it still dont move i walk away and come back another time do the same , eventually they break loose, the trick is to not to over do it till the stud itself twists,
Luckily you still have the studs in there , you could try welding something to the base of stud and give that a go, sometimes the extreme heat from welding is enough to help it on its way
Good luck

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle built in the Man Room!
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2012, 06:38:28 AM »
I'm hoping with a stud extractor right near the base it will help. Seems like with the studs being so long a lot of your energy just going into bending and twisting the stud instead of actually torquing the thread.

Welding in the condo is not the best idea but I'll do it if I have to!

IW