Author Topic: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - If only spring would get here...  (Read 147645 times)

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Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - Top End Teardown & Oil Leak Analysis
« Reply #1000 on: October 21, 2013, 01:59:12 PM »
The packing was a later edition, earlier heads don't have all those holes. The extra holes were added to try to cure head gasket weep/creep on our bikes. In part I'm sure it helps them to not collapse, without a doubt. That chamfer is most likely there to help them slip in to the hole, just replicate it if you feel so inclined. It would only make the assembly easier

Also, atleast IMO, your engine was not together nearly long enough to need a resurfacing. I'm sure you can find some people to disagree with me but I would leave it be. It isn't like you really overheated it bad or raced it

I spoke with Ken @ Cycle X today again. I told him my findings of the sleeves being at various heights and he said that definitely could have been the cause of the leak. I don't know if there is much a guy can do other than resurface ... despite it only being 1750miles since the last time it was resurfaced.

Ken also said that those dowel pins in the oil channels are not needed. I guess last year when I asked him about it he told me you don't need to run the packing with his MLS gasket. I assumed that meant just the rubber part ... I guess he meant the rubber bits and the metal dowels. So that was a bit of screw up on my part I guess. You definitely still need the two alignment dowels in the corners though.

I also ran over to R&L Cycles at lunch today and spoke with their guy. They machinist said that I should bring my cylinders so he can "make sure they aren't junk" before they surface them ...wtf? I'm not sure what that even means.

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1001 on: October 22, 2013, 08:11:44 AM »
So it turns out I'm an idiot ...

I was stripping my head and cylinders down to take it to the machine shop. I was going to get them to surface the head and just degrease them both... In doing so, I noticed one of my valves wouldn't come out of the guide and another one is real tight. Uh oh.

Upon closer inspection it looks like I may have bent them when I was taking the cam tower off ... or at least that's what I suspect. I got ahead of myself when I was taking the top end apart and started pulling the cam tower off before I'd pulled all the rockers out. So there was still pressure on the cam towers and it got kind of crooked before I remembered and sucked it back down with the bolts. However, it looks like I might have bent the end of a couple of my valves.

ARG

I really need to sllllooowwww down when I work. I get hurrying for no reason. I have all winter to get this engine back together so there really is no rush.

So that's my ham-fisted, idiotic move for the day. I'll be dropping the head and cylinder off at the machine shop today to see what kind of damage I may have caused this time.  :-[

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1002 on: October 22, 2013, 08:51:33 AM »
Since I may or may not need a couple new valve guides I was surfing the Cycle X site. I notice they have their regular valve guide sets and oversize valve guides in various sizes:

http://www.cyclexchange.net/Engine%20Parts%20Valve%20Trane.htm

Is this oversize referring to the OD of the valve guide or valve stem diameter?

IW


Offline Syscrush

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1003 on: October 22, 2013, 10:14:56 AM »
So that's my ham-fisted, idiotic move for the day. I'll be dropping the head and cylinder off at the machine shop today to see what kind of damage I may have caused this time.  :-[
Give yourself a break.  This is how expertise is built.

The lessons aren't cheap, but they're valuable.
Life is precious: wear your f'n helmet!
There's nothing more expensive than a free bike...
FWIW, I'm not a shill for Race Tech - I've just got a thing for good suspension and the RTCE's are the most cost-effective mod for these old damping rod front ends.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1004 on: October 22, 2013, 10:35:05 AM »
Thanks man. I'm definitely building up a list of things not to do.  ???

Hopefully they can salvage the guides and it's just a valve replacement. However, the guy at the machine said he would be weary of powder coating. Heating the cylinders up that much may cause the bores to warp. He said it won't necessarily happen but its a possibility. Any experience with this?

IW

Offline 01Thomas

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1005 on: October 22, 2013, 12:38:14 PM »
Hi IW

Are you running a masterlink camchain or an endless camchain?
If the camchain is endless:
How can you remove the camtowers without removing the cam, and following from that
How do you remove the cam without removing the rockers?

If it is a masterlink camchain all the above is possible but even then lifting the towers with the camshaft away from the head will let the valves return to their seats, away from each other and away from the piston.

So I still don't understand how your disassembly could bend the valves.

regards
Thomas
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1006 on: October 22, 2013, 12:56:55 PM »
I do run an endless cam chain... and I wasn't able to remove the cam towers with the cam still in... but I did start loosening the bolts. When I did the the valves that were under pressure from the cam pushed up that one side of the cam tower more than the other. When i saw that happening I started tightening the bolts back down but I it must have came down and bent the valve over (slightly) before I noticed.

It must have been from something like that because I can't really see any other way that I could bend the top of a valve stem. If the valve had hit a piston it would bend on the combustion chamber side at the neck and there would be evidence of it hitting the piston I'm sure but this isn't the case.

IW

Offline 01Thomas

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1007 on: October 22, 2013, 01:02:53 PM »
Yes, I get it, sort-off. Bending the tops of the valve stems is really odd.
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1008 on: October 23, 2013, 07:01:14 AM »
Never under-estimate what I can break.  ::)

IW

Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1009 on: October 23, 2013, 09:40:06 PM »
Sure that you don't have a minuscule amount of mushrooming? Clearance is very small there. Dress where the tappet contacts if that is where you are getting tight. You want change any clearances or cause long term wear
The dirty girl-1976 cb750k, Ebay 836, Tracy bodykit
Round top carbs w/ 38 pilots, middle needle position, airscrew 7/8ths out, 122 main jet
Stock airbox w/ drop in K&N, Hooker 4-1

Don't trust me alone with a claw hammer and some pliers

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - It turns out I'm an idiot...
« Reply #1010 on: October 24, 2013, 09:05:56 AM »
No it's not mushrooming. I had some of that too on my other valves where the keepers ride on the valve. I dressed that off with a jeweler's file and they came right out. This one is definitely bent.

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1011 on: November 05, 2013, 06:55:10 PM »
I got my heads & cylinders back from the machine shop ... a while ago actually but I haven't really done anything with them since.


Much cleaner.


The oil really did a number on the paint though. They surfaced both sides just to make sure so it should be all good now.

Also just wondering but ...


Are all cam lobes shaped asymmetrically like that? I guess I've never really looked closely. this is my stock cam that I'm thinking about putting back in. Just want it double check that it's not some sort of weird wear.

Next up my plan is to get some all thread and and use it to clamp the cylinders and head together and then bolt the valve cover on top. Then I'll tape off everything like intake/exhaust ports, bottom cylinder openings, cam tensioner hole, etc. Then I'm going to take it to the blaster so they can just blast it all at once. I think it should work pretty well. My plan is also to paint it and bake it while it's assembled like that so the sleeves hopefully don't creep up again. Anyway, I'm guessing I will get this to the blaster some time next week. I'm not really in a rush on this since I'm just doing the top end this winter and we just got our first snow ... got lots of long cold nights before spring yet.  :-[

I've also got a gasket kit and a couple new valves ordered and on the way from Cycle X. Should be here well before I'm ready to reassemble.

IW
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 06:56:45 PM by iron_worker »

Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1012 on: November 06, 2013, 06:26:12 PM »
The lobes won't be perfectly in line

If I were you I would do a no gasket mockup and see how everything sits, will it sit surface to surface snugly? I had concerns with my mystery motor about head skimming so I slapped it on with no gasket and it mated up. The paint job idea is how I would approach it so that you don't have to spend 8 hrs taping up stuff. I think that just stacking them up  would be fine
The dirty girl-1976 cb750k, Ebay 836, Tracy bodykit
Round top carbs w/ 38 pilots, middle needle position, airscrew 7/8ths out, 122 main jet
Stock airbox w/ drop in K&N, Hooker 4-1

Don't trust me alone with a claw hammer and some pliers

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1013 on: November 10, 2013, 02:38:47 PM »
I continue to plod along on my quest towards a leak free 750...


My alignment dowels weren't fitting very well so I chucked them up in my "lathe."


Touched up the bores very carefully with a dremel...


Until I had a tight slip-fit.


And the pieces go together nicely.


I wanted the head and cylinders to be clamped together for blasting as well as for when I bake the paint. For blasting, it reduces the amount of taping I need to do but for paint baking I'm hoping it will ensure that my sleeves do not creep when heating/cooling.


I made 6 "studs" out of 5/16" all-thread and nuts/washers and tightened them lightly.


Pop on the valve cover with the old screws to keep grit out of the holes.


I was told by the blaster that I needed 2 layers of duct tape.


Everything all sealed up. Should make it pretty easy for them (hopefully that means less $$$).


Intake ports, exhaust ports, underside of the cylinders, cam chain tensioner hole, tach cable hole, etc were all plugged.


Anyone know if the spark plugs will be affected by bead blasting? I don't think it should hurt them but thought I would ask.

So, hopefully next week I can get this thing blasted and by then I should have my parts from cycle X. Then I just need to paint, lap in a couple new valves (might hit them all just because), and reassemble. Then we can get on to my cousin's 500 engine if we ever gets it up here!

IW

Offline BPellerine

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1014 on: November 10, 2013, 04:02:28 PM »
better luck this time ironworker!bill
1978 CB 750K ard and webers
another anfob

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1015 on: November 12, 2013, 11:18:15 AM »
Thanks Bill!

Yes, lets hope she's a bone-dry build this time.  ;D

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1016 on: December 04, 2013, 07:33:23 PM »
I continue to plod along on my engine (re)build. I had the head glass blasted and it took nearly three weeks so that has been a major hold up. Although, I have several months until spring anyway so no rush, really.


I popped the pistons off to give them a cleaning.


I soaked them in brake cleaner ... which doesn't really work for baked on carbon BTW.


Organized my valve stuff. I'm taking out the heavy duty springs I used with the CX-1 cam and going back to stock springs with the stock cam.


The top end did look really nice when it finally made it back though!


A small upgrade to the man room. The gf got a new mac so I get the old laptop ... that I bought her. lol


I thought I sealed it up well ... apparently not. Glass beads everywhere!!!


After muchos vacuuming and cleaning of all the dust and grit I started taping it up again for paint.


Wiped the cylinders down with some nice heavy gear oil to prevent rust.


All taped up and ready for paint. I'm waiting for a day that my gf is out of the house to spray it and bake it. She is pretty sensitive to smells and baking paint is stinky as hell.

So after painting I just need to touch up the valve seats (at least for the two new valves I had to buy), re-install the valve springs w/new guide seals, and then throw the top end back together. Easy as pie. ha

IW

Offline knowsnothing

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1017 on: December 05, 2013, 10:14:15 AM »
Looking good IW.  I had luck breaking up a lot of the carbon on a set of used pistons by soaking them upside down in Sea foam. 

Keep up the good work.
1978 CB750k Green - 811 engine
1978 CB750k Blue - for sale
1974 CB375F Faded Black - had to have that 6th gear
1976 CB400F Red - in many pieces
1973 CB350F TBD - in many pieces

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1018 on: December 06, 2013, 07:09:59 AM »
Thanks. I've never actually used seafoam but I've heard it's great stuff. Though I wonder if it's gone the way of the carb dips that were once good but now are so restricted that they can't make it as good anymore?  ::)

IW

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1019 on: December 15, 2013, 02:01:34 PM »
I know this thread is now slow as molasses ... but I have all winter to rebuild one top end so I guess I'm not feeling too much urgency. lol I've just been checking out everyone else's builds mostly.


Had to "murderize" the room again ... hahaha  ... didn't buy enough plastic though so I made a pretty big mess. Fortunately it was only for one part so not too much spraying to do.


1st coat


3rd coat


Lookin pretty even and nice.


Dried and masking tape removed.








So I decided to tear it all down so I could lap my valves in. I'm sure they didn't really need lapping but since I had to replace a couple of valves I would need to lap those anyway so I might as well.  ::) My two x four in a vice with the head clamped onto it worked quite well. Very sturdy.


I first did a test with some poor man's dykem ... IE sharpie. The seats were in fine shape as suspected.


Nice even ring all the way around.


But I hit them with some fine compound anyway. All the intakes clean up really easily.






My new #4 intake. Unlapped.


New valve lapped in.




My exhaust valves had some spots on them that didn't seem to want to come off with the fine. I couldn't feel the spots with my finger nail but you can definitely see them. Almost looks like staining?  ???


But after I stepped it up to coarse and then back down to fine to finish them off the seating area cleaned up well.


My supplies.

For anyone interested ...

Method:
1) Spray out guide with WD40 to clean out any dust or grit that may be in there.
2) Wipe off valve (if your valves have a lot of miles on them then you will probably need to wire wheel the head area of the valve but avoid hitting the seat it self and don't hit the stem of the valve either.
3) Apply a small amount of fine compound to only the valve seat area (not much is needed). If your valves are in rough shape you may be smarter to just hit it with coarse first.
4) Dip the stem of the valve in a bit of oil and insert it into it's correct guide.
5) Apply your suction cup/handle to the face of the valve and using your hands (rolling a play-dough snake ... lolz) spin the valve back and forth. Lift the valve off the seat regularly and tap it back down to pull fresh compound between the faces. After a minute or so of lapping, pull the valve out and wipe all the compound from the valve and the seat.
6) Inspect the seat and valve. There should be a continuous grey ring on both surfaces. If you see any areas that look like they were missed then you will probably need to step up to the coarse compound and repeat 3-6 until your seat surfaces have a continuous grey ring all the way around. If you find the pitting is too deep or there are cracks then you will likely need to have your valve seats recut or replace your valves or both.
7) After the coarse compound step is finished, step back down to the fine compound to refine the mating surface further.

Note: Between grades of compounds you should always wipe the valve and seat area completely clean. Use one rag for fine grit and one rag for coarse grit. Also try to avoid getting any compound anywhere near the guide. You don't want any grit ruining your guide's dimensions and finish.

All in all it's a pretty easy process. It just takes some time. I would recommend doing it by hand if you have never done it before to master the process first. I have never tried using the drill method but I would presume you could do more harm than good quite quickly if you were not careful in that case.



Lastly, my gf has spoken out quite loudly against me baking my parts in the home oven. It makes the place smell for a few days afterwards and tends to give her headaches so I don't necessarily blame her. I'm debating right now if I should try to track down a shop that can do it for me, find some sort of big toaster oven to do it or just don't do it at all? Any thoughts on that?

Thanks for looking guys,

IW




Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1020 on: December 15, 2013, 03:13:53 PM »
lokin good IW. I am finally at the painting stage myself. just painted my new K1 frame. tomorrow it will get one more coat. just painted the new fork lowers too with the same VHT engine paint I used before. I can bake those small parts, mostly because I live with two guys and they don't care.

now the engine....last time I did not cure it out of the frame and it yellowed a tad. I was doing some reading on how to bake an entire engine...would LOVE to take it to work and use the big ovens there...I saw someone make a makeshift oven out of a large box, lots of tin-foil for insulation and fire protection, and a heat gun with extra holes for regulating temperatures...I mean we only need to get it to 200 degrees. the cardboard won't catch fire at that temp. I will be working out a way to do this in the next few days. I will keep you posted :D

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1021 on: December 15, 2013, 05:04:34 PM »
Thanks Chef. I hope your rebuild is going well.

The directions for this Duplicolor call for 300F. I think that's a bit much to expect from a cardboard box. I saw a build of a powder coating oven that a guy made from steel wall studs, fiberglass insulation, and an oven element/control. Seems like a lot of work to do for one top end though. ha

Looks like I'll probably have some time to think about it over the xmas break and figure out what to do in the new year.

IW

Offline cheftuskey121

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1022 on: December 15, 2013, 05:06:57 PM »
Oh wow. 300? The VHT calls for 200. See if you can find a cheap craigslist oven or have a single friends oven to borrow for an hour
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:11:57 PM by cheftuskey121 »

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1023 on: December 16, 2013, 05:34:25 AM »
Ya I've been looking for an oven but I would need a rather large one it seems.

IW

Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1
« Reply #1024 on: December 28, 2013, 05:08:23 AM »
Hey IW glad to se you're holding up well this winter :D

After a few months "away" from the forum it's nice to come back and see that everything is as usual !

Keep up your magnificent work !
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2