Topic: Project: 7-Fizzle - V1.1 - If only spring would get here...

[iron_worker]

Thanks! I'll have to post mine up later.

IW

[iron_worker]

Well it was starting to get pretty chilly up here in Canada, eh.  It was time to think about putting the bike away. My gf's dad graciously allows me to put the bike in his garage for the winter. However, I knew I wanted to work on a few things on my motor this winter so I had to pull the motor first if I was going to keep it here...


Started like this about 10:30am.


11:45 it looked like this...


About 1:45 it looked like this (after lunch break).


By 2:45 I had the bike partially back together.


And by 3:30 the motor was upstairs...


... and the rest of the bike was loaded.


Some carnage to my arms from heaving the nearly 200lb motor up the 3 floors. A few days later, almost all of my forearms are bruised. Well maybe I shouldn't do that again... 

Plans for Project 7-Fizzle - V1.1
-Try and take care of my minor head gasket leak
-Repaint or powder coat the top end (/possibly the whole motor...)
-Cam swap back to something more stock-like
-Find some side cover badges (my repops have already started chipping...  )

Head Gasket Leak
I thought I had done everything right ... I used MLS gaskets, heavy duty APE studs, I had the head and the cylinders machined try (by Cycle X), and I even bought new flange nuts for the new studs. However, I still had a minor leak.

My only thoughts for why I am still getting some leaking is that I had to have one of my cylinders re-sleeved/bored AFTER Cycle X did their machine work since I mangled a ring/bore while trying to install the cylinders last year. The machine shop thought they could just surface that one sleeve down to the level of the rest of sleeves. They may have either left that sleeve too high OR since they had to heat the cylinders to get the one out ... the other sleeves might have crept a few thousandths which could be hampering my perfect seal. Any thoughts?

Re-Paint or Powder Coat
I had already painted my cylinders when I had to send it in for re-sleeving. The machine shop must have used a torch to heat the cylinders because the paint was ruined when I got it back. I re-painted the cylinders except I didn't have it glass beaded again. I tried to just use sand paper and acetone to prep it as best I could. So, I think my cylinder paint failed due to poor prep... however, my head paint and valve cover paint didn't hold up that well either and it was painted directly onto glass beaded surfaces that were wiped down with acetone ... it doesn't get much better than that for adhesion.

Also, I didn't bake any of my paint so that may have had some effect but after some reading, I'm not so sure that it does. A lot of people seem to have problems similar to mine despite thorough prep work. So... I don't really want to paint it again if I'm just going to end up in the same position next year. I believe powder coat is a longer term solution but I know it's going to be expensive and if I'm doing that then I may have to redo the cases as well since color matching could be difficult.

Decisions, decisions.

Cam Swap
My CX-1 cam's performance is good. I am not unhappy with that aspect of it. However, the mileage, and thus range, is not as good. I can get 35mpg at best. Next year, I'd like to take the bike on some longer distance rides so I'd like to get some range back out of it.

I'm not too sure if I should just drop the stock K4 cam back in or if I should try the megacycle-00 cam or maybe even an early K cam? Do F cams fit?

I'm open to thoughts here as well.

So as you can see, I have a direction I know that I'm heading but I just don't know exactly what path I'll be taking to get there yet. I'm open to all comments and suggestions for the time being.


Finally, I cleared some space in the man room for motor parts. I'll be doing a tear down on my own as well as my cousin's 500 at some point this winter. 

IW

[Tews19]

You are hardcore brotha! I'm stripping my K1 down in a week as well if the weather doesn't get warmer.

[SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan]

Holy crap!  That was a helluva day!  I'm still trying to figure out what you sat the motor on top of inside your house, that didn't fold in half from the 200lb plus paperweight. 

I'm all for powdercoating the engine.  There's so much hit and miss with VHT, etc.  Powdercoat will not peal, fade or crack.  It is more chemical resistant, too. 

[brandEn]

Your awesome! Love it.

[ivanhoew]

didi you ever get a wide band lambda on it IW ?

[iron_worker]

You are hardcore brotha! I'm stripping my K1 down in a week as well if the weather doesn't get warmer.

Why thank you! Good luck with yours.

Holy crap!  That was a helluva day!  I'm still trying to figure out what you sat the motor on top of inside your house, that didn't fold in half from the 200lb plus paperweight. 

I'm all for powdercoating the engine.  There's so much hit and miss with VHT, etc.  Powdercoat will not peal, fade or crack.  It is more chemical resistant, too. 

It was a hell of a day. I didn't go to the gym that day but I was fricken beat by the end of it.

I set the engine on my parts washer which has supported it's weight before so I was reasonably confident it wouldn't collapse. (By the time I got up to the third floor I was reasonably confident that *I* was going to collapse!)

Powder coating does sound like the superior option ... it's just pretty friggen expensive around here.

Your awesome! Love it.

Why thank you!

didi you ever get a wide band lambda on it IW ?

You know, I never did. I thought about how sweet it would be to get a wideband O2 system on it and really tune it in. Then I thought about hacking up my brand new 4-4 exhaust ....    Anyway, I think the nature of this project just calls for something more close to original which is why I'm thinking early K cam or something.


Anyway, I'm not really sure when this project is going to take off since I'd like to get my vehicles polished up outside before winter hits so I'll probably focus on those projects for the next couple weeks or so before the teardown begins.

Unless the snow gets here too soon of course... 

IW

[Syscrush]

Good luck, particularly with that oil leak.

[iron_worker]

Thanks. I think I'm going to call up Ken at Cycle X and see what his opinion is of it. I spent enough money on this motor ... it shouldn't leak. ha

IW

[Tews19]

Curious to what he thinks... mention how you been documenting all rides.

[iron_worker]

Had a nice chat with Ken @ CycleX. I always learn something when I talk to Ken on the phone. He is a great guy.

He said it's unlikely that the MLS head gasket would leak but somewhat retracted his statement after I told him about how I had to have another machine shop redo that one sleeve. He said the sleeves tend to creep back up a few thousandths as they cool after they've been pressed out. He said when they re-sleeve he presses them back down when it's hot, as it's cooling, and again once it's cooled just to make sure.

He also mentioned that he has seen some leak down through the cam tower bolts and even some through the head bolts (under the flange nuts or through the threads).

So... I will call him back once I get it torn down and hopefully have more information for him. He said he will work with me on a new gasket set so that is nice. He doesn't have any responsibility to help me out on that since I did assemble the motor myself and I did have other people work on it after he touched it... so that's just a nice gesture I thought.

So in the next couple weeks I'll tear this thing down and hopefully glean some new info as to what was actually leaking.

IW

[lwahples]

Enjoyed your last winters project and looks like this will be another schooling type cold season.Cool that Ken is helping with the task.

[dave500]

whats he rebuilding in there?

[seanbarney41]

whats he rebuilding in there?

Jesus #$%*ing christ dude, get those motorcycle parts out of your house and in to your garage before your girlfriend #$%*ing leaves you!...I don't even have bike parts in my house and I still don't have a girlfriend

[cheftuskey121]

whats he rebuilding in there?

Jesus #$%*ing christ dude, get those motorcycle parts out of your house and in to your garage before your girlfriend #$%*ing leaves you!...I don't even have bike parts in my house and I still don't have a girlfriend

...he doesn't HAVE a garage. he restored this bike in his 3rd story apartment man room. how could you forget?

[iron_worker]

Enjoyed your last winters project and looks like this will be another schooling type cold season.Cool that Ken is helping with the task.

Thanks! This one won't be as intensively as last year's rebuild but I like the fact that I have lots of time, I don't feel rushed to do anything right away. I'm going to take my time and do it right.

whats he rebuilding in there?

Nobody knows!

whats he rebuilding in there?

Jesus #$%*ing christ dude, get those motorcycle parts out of your house and in to your garage before your girlfriend #$%*ing leaves you!...I don't even have bike parts in my house and I still don't have a girlfriend

hahaha, the gf has made her peace with it. Helps that I'm supporting her while she goes back to school. And no ... no garage here.

IW

[iron_worker]

Motor Teardown & Analysis


We start with a pretty good looking specimen, complete and on the parts washer.


But on closer inspection there are some defects ... chipping/flaking/faded paint.


And some frame marks where I gave it a bit too much rage while pulling the motor. 


More pics of the failing paint...


The heat really caused it to bubble on the fins.




Overall the lower cases look good but they have a few spots themselves that aren't so good.


Real bad flaking here.


Lower cases look pretty nice.


... but have some rash from road debris and bugs.

So lets pull it apart!


Everything comes apart nice since it's only been one season since the last rebuild. ha


Nothing shocking here.


Pull off the exhaust flanges ... man they were in there good. I used loctite since the vibrations tend to loosen them and create exhaust leaks.


Parts shelf starting to fill up.


At last the cam towers are free! I tried to wipe up the pooled oil under the valves so oil wouldn't go everywhere when i pulled the head.


There was oil down in the cam tower bolt holes ... I thought it might be a source of a leak but it seems to be a blind hole. I pulled the cam tower "pucks" and some of them came out easier than I'd like to see... however there seemed to be no sign of oil that got past the seal underneath.


Oil jet o-rings really look like they flattened out big time. Seems like it's barely even above the surface...


I like to put everything partially back together exactly like it came out. Much easier to keep track of everything.


I checked the head bolt torques before I pulled the head. I tried 18lb*ft first and only one of the nuts moved just the slightest fraction before it clicked. I went to 20lb*ft and a couple of nuts tightened up a little bit before clicking but most just clicked. I pretty much ruled out "loosened" head fasteners as a cause of the leak.


Some oil trails along the edge of the head (next to #4 I think?)


Same thing on the other side.


This is the underside of the head. (Looks like I was running a bit rich but I was screwing with my idle mix just before I put the bike away for the winter so I think that's probably why it looks like that.) You can see the oil trails along the sides.


Same deal on the other side. I was originally thinking that maybe the corner dowel pins had caused the head to hang up and not fully seat down. There is also a little ridge inside the dowel pin bore that looked suspicious.


Hard to see but there is a ridge down in the bore that I thought might have been holding the dowels off the bottom and preventing a good head/cylinder clamp.


Same thing here but you can actually see that the oil probably came around the corner dowel pin and probably didn't escape from there. And on further though, the corner dowels actually aren't oil drains like the rest of them so there really is no way for them to leak!


Looks like the oil came around the corner and the was pushed back by wind force (and mad G forces from sick acceleration ...  )


The pressure delivery port o-rings looked a little wonky ...


For some reason they were a weird almost triangular shape? Didn't look like it leaked from there though.




There's that ridge i was talking about.


Got the cylinders off with a minor fight.


Fortunately, the pistons looks good and the cross-hatch from the hone is still clearly visible.


Parts pile starting to grow.

So that's where I left it for the night. Decided I would let it stew in my brain for a while and see if anything popped up.


Threw the head on top of the cylinders just too have a look .... you can see oil on the first fin of the cylinders.


But looking above that, there is really no where that oil could have come from on this side.


You can see the oil streaks down the edges but I think that's from the casting marks and wind pushing the oil up there.


By this photo, it looks more like the leak was probably coming from the 3/4 cylinder region and just flowed around to both sides on the top fin of the cylinders.



 
The 1/2 side has a much lighter coating so I don't think the leak was over here.


Pull the MLS gasket off to take a look. No super obvious signs of exactly where it came from but seems to be definitely coming from somewhere around the #3 I think.




Same trails around the sides from the wind carrying the oil.




I thought it might have been coming from here but there is no where above here that shows an oil trail and the exhaust flange screw hole is just a blind hole ... so nope.


Lets try and measure these sleeves... see if my initial guess of the cylinders creeping after the resleeve was correct...


Not the best way to measure it but I could repeatably show that the sleeve was down from the surface of the head (about .002").


Zero it out on the sleeve...


The other side is down about .001"


And the #3 ... on zero (almost) on the sleeve.


Oh #$%* ... this sleeve is proud of the surface by about .001"...




#2 is down about .002"




#1 is also down .001 or .002".


.... So that might explain the leak in the area of the #3/#4. If #3 is proud of the surface a thou or so and #4 is down a couple thou... I'm thinking that is enough to cause a bad seal. Thoughts?

Random aside on rings ... Do they rotate or not?!

When I installed my rings/pistons I made sure to orient them all about 120 degrees apart ... even though I didn't really believe that rings won't rotate while the engine is running. Here is how they were when I pulled the cylinders...


#1 where almost together ... definitely didn't leave them like this.


#2 were also quite close to each other.


#3 where about 30 degrees apart.


And #4 where like 180 degrees apart.

Anyway, so I think I've probably found my oil leak after much deliberation. I'm guessing the MLS gasket, though good, just couldn't take the .002" - .003" difference between those two sleeves. The dowel pins in the corner may have also played into it in giving reduced clamping force due to friction in the dowel bores.

Do you need to trim your dowels pins down when you resurface a head/cylinders? Do you need to trim the alignment dowels as well as the dowels in the oil channels?

I appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

Thanks

IW

[BPellerine]

they cannot hold the head off the cyls with the head on and no headgasket in place if they do they need to be trimmed.bill

[brandEn]

I had to trim the dowels on both my engine rebuilds.

[iron_worker]

Interesting. Well that could be part of my problem as well then. Do you need to trim the alignment dowels and the dowels that are in the drain holes?

IW

[brandEn]

Well I did. Just a bit though, I didn't measure anything just hit them on the grinder for a second.

[bjbuchanan]

You would ideally trim them as much as the head/deck got trimmed. Practically speaking it doesn't matter if you just shave them with a grinder. They are locating dowls, height doesn't need to be to the T so to speak. Clean up that bore for that dowel, try to kill that ridge a little

Rings do rotate in the bores. It is good practice to orient them away from eachother when building but there isn't actually anything to stop their free rotation. Some end up more or less lining up, some engines can have 100k on them and they aren't stacked up. Can't really control that but it isn't like you will have a smoky lump if they line themselves up

[iron_worker]

You would ideally trim them as much as the head/deck got trimmed. Practically speaking it doesn't matter if you just shave them with a grinder. They are locating dowls, height doesn't need to be to the T so to speak. Clean up that bore for that dowel, try to kill that ridge a little

Rings do rotate in the bores. It is good practice to orient them away from eachother when building but there isn't actually anything to stop their free rotation. Some end up more or less lining up, some engines can have 100k on them and they aren't stacked up. Can't really control that but it isn't like you will have a smoky lump if they line themselves up

Thanks for the info. The reason I ask because I didn't think the dowels in the oils holes fit into the holes in the head. They have a nice slip fit into the cylinders but it looks like they have a chamfered end that presses into a matching chamfer on the head. Maybe I'm over thinking it.

Anyway, I got to thinking what the true purpose of the dowels in the oil holes really was. I don't think it's for locating (that's the job of the 2 large ones in the corners). I believe the only real purpose of the 8 oil hole dowels is to give some support to the "packing" (rubber cylinder seal thing-a-mabobs) so they don't fold over and fall into the drain hole. Ken @ CycleX says with the MLS gasket you don't need to run packing so I'm wondering if running those 8 oil hole dowels are also not needed.

Perhaps I'll give Ken another call today and also a local machine shop to figure out what the best approach is. I don't want to have them surface it if I'm going to be powder coating it. The heat of baking the powder coat may cause the sleeves to try and creep up or down again.

IW

[bjbuchanan]

The packing was a later edition, earlier heads don't have all those holes. The extra holes were added to try to cure head gasket weep/creep on our bikes. In part I'm sure it helps them to not collapse, without a doubt. That chamfer is most likely there to help them slip in to the hole, just replicate it if you feel so inclined. It would only make the assembly easier

Also, atleast IMO, your engine was not together nearly long enough to need a resurfacing. I'm sure you can find some people to disagree with me but I would leave it be. It isn't like you really overheated it bad or raced it

[01Thomas]

As someone else has commented, rings do rotate in operation. I seem to recall that the rotational speed is one-seventh of the revs the engine is doing at the time? If true they can be doing up to 800 rpm when you're close to redline.

Two strokes have pins in the grooves to prevent the rings from rotating, else the ring-ends would get snagged in the ports.

regards
Thomas
EDIT make that "doing around 1000 rpm when..."