Author Topic: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow  (Read 5991 times)

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Offline crossculturesbc

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Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« on: October 31, 2012, 01:16:04 PM »
I could use some serious help.  I'm trying to help a disabled buddy out with his 78 Honda CB-750k.  We got it working nice, had a pro shop sync and tune the carbs and everything idles and runs well.  Unfortunately, even though it runs through all of the gears fine, it won't get over 40mph.  I'm not a serious mechanic so I'm open to any ideas and appreciate any help.  This is with a 200 lb rider and no serious load.  Any thoughts?

Offline flybox1

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 01:35:25 PM »
not even with a runway's worth of highway?  :o
what maintenance/tune-up items have you done to the bike thus far?

how sure are you that the carbs are working properly?
How sure are you that the 'pro' shop cleaned and set them perfectly? 
what size main and idle jets are in there, and are they clean along with the needle jet/emulsion tube?
is the accel pump working properly?
how well did you set your timing/advance?
did you set your valves?
are you running pods or an airbox(is the filter new/clean?)?

we need lots more info....
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
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Offline 2wheels

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 01:49:48 PM »
a picture might be worth a thousand words here.

Will it rev up to 4000 to 5000 RPM when sitting still in neutral?
1970 CB750 K0 (I can't believe I tossed my duck tail seat in the trash 30 years ago)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 01:57:41 PM »
The bike still has all it's original 1978 parts and and has never been neglected or abused?

When was the last 3000 mile routine tune up checklist performed?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 02:08:29 PM »
  We got it working nice, had a pro shop sync and tune the carbs and everything idles and runs well.  Unfortunately, even though it runs through all of the gears fine, it won't get over 40mph.
ummm...no you don't.  If it ran through all the gears fine, you'd be doing 40 by the middle of second gear...
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline crossculturesbc

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 02:16:03 PM »
All great questions from everyone above.  Take one of those cool shows on TV where guys trick out an awesome bike and remove the people that know anything and insert me and two other guys in my church who know very little about engine mechanics and you've got our situation.

First off, it's a frank'n bike with a springer front end and a series of aftermarket add-ons and customizations, but primarily cosmetic, electrical and suspension.  The exhaust, frame and engine have no modifications to my knowledge.

To answer all of your questions, I'm not sure.  The "pro-shop" is not an authorized Honda dealer, but they do have a good reputation for quality used bikes.  So is there the potential they're not right? absolutely.  Limited funds prevent us from going too many places for repeated "tune-ups" though.  They disassembled the carbs, cleaned them and synch'd them, but I'd need to run your lists by them on the other things. 

Thanks for the suggestions and I appreciate the patience with this newbie.  I'll work with what you gave me and go from there.  Thanks.

Offline crossculturesbc

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 02:21:29 PM »
let me add a few more things.  No, 10 runways wouldn't do it.  The throttle cables and carbs were all checked and opening fine.  Full throttle on flat land = 42 mph.  It rev's well in idle but it's not got a tach.  I couldn't vouch for how well it's been maintained since we've only had it for a few months and the previous owner flew the coop in a shady manner.  Since my friend is disabled, the guy had traded him this 750 and was going to bring over a 750 automatic to swap in and never did.

Offline 2wheels

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 02:24:26 PM »
yup, picture is worth a thousand words.
I like the bike and it sure should go over 40.
Now I think a video so we can hear the bike run would be a great start.

Could be as simple as one bad spark plug.
1970 CB750 K0 (I can't believe I tossed my duck tail seat in the trash 30 years ago)

Offline andrewk

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 03:16:23 PM »
What carbs are on it?  Hard to tell, but they don't look like PD's or 657's.... If they're different than factory, this could be a place to start.

Have you verified that the ignition is working?  Could be running on 3 or even 2 cylinders.  Often the connection between the plug caps and the coil wires deteriorates, this can be solved by trimming the wire back by about 1/4 inch or so and screwing the caps back in to the wires.

It's also a good idea to check the resistance of the caps, bad ones will cause a no-spark senario.

A good place to start though is to check the 3000 mile tune up adjustments- valve lash, cam chain, and points gap/dwell.  It also might be prudent to rent/borrow a compression tester and see what sort of compression you're working with.  Doing all this sets a baseline from which to tune from.

The pro-shop might have done all this already, so it's best to measure the current specs of things before you go making adjustments.  This way you know what was in or out of spec, and adjust accordingly.  Sounds simple, but a lot of people think that "it's fine" without actually verifying it.

I would strongly suggest getting a copy of the service manual, there should be one on sohc4.net.  This will help you with every service procedure you'll be doing.  The OEM manual is the best.

Also, it's unrelated to the running issue, but the angle on those shocks is such that they will be pretty ineffective- just fyi.

And, not to be picky about a picture with no context, but the front tire is low in that pic- just in case you didn't realize it :)

Offline xnoahx

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 04:25:36 PM »
I would check the fuel filter to see if its not excessively clogged.  Might give you issues with fuel delivery at the higher speeds.
Could clutch slip under load cause the problem?  Who knows how this bike was treated.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 05:06:02 PM »
I have a 78 also. I thought 2 cylinders were out but it would sound like a washing machine. I think the carbs are still clogged. The mains not the idle jets.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

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Offline XLerate

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 07:01:47 PM »
You mentioned disabled? I'm not real familiar with 750's but seems to me there was an auto-trans version? Does this bike by any chance have an automatic?

Problems there can cause exactly what you're talking about though engine seems to, and maybe does run right. These have automatic clutches that have to be set properly plus fluid restrictions etc. could cause problems.

Offline crossculturesbc

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 07:45:42 PM »
based on everyone's comments, I'll look at timing and cylinder firing first and find out what the pro shop did with the main jets. 

This is not the auto version.  Another parts bike, which was an automatic version, was supposed to accompany this one...alas that was the shady part and we've never seen the automatic.  So we put in a suicide jockey shift in so he can shift and clutch without the use of his foot. 

Yes we recognized the low tire, but thanks ayways and yes the angle really makes the shocks useless, but he loves the old chopper look.  I ride an 1100 shadow spirit and the raked front on this one is really hard to get use to.

Thanks again for everyone's help.  Prayerfully, we'll get this guy on the road soon...over 40 mph.

Offline Magilla

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2012, 08:21:43 AM »
The very first place I would start is with the plugs.  If one or two are fouled it will still run but it will have no power under a load.  It will rev up in neutral too.  When my bike was fouling plugs I ran into this issue.  If it is the plugs you need to change them (make sure you use all one brand for all 4 new plugs).  Then ride it again.  if this fixes the problem you need to keep an eye on it.  This did not fix the root cause of the problem it just helps diagnose it.

If they don't foul again it was likely they were fouled prior to the carb cleaning and sync.  If they do foul again we will need to know what they look like.  Black dry soot?  Black and wet with oil?

Try this first as it is fast and cheap.

One more thing, please, please, please post a pic of the other side of that bike.  I want to see that sidecar thing.  If George Barris made a motorcycle for Grandpa Munster THIS BIKE is what it would look like!!.  I need more pics!!!!!!!!!!!
1972   Honda CB350
1972   Yamaha 500
1982   Yamaha 650
1988   Harley Sportster 883
1983   HD FXR Shovelhead
2003   HD Heritage Softail
2006   Victory Vegas Jackpot
1980   Honda CB650
1976   Honda CB750K
1982   Honda CB750
1964   Honda CA95
1982   Kawasaki 550
1974   Honda CL360
1975   Suzuki GT550
1981   Honda CB750
1981   Honda CB750
1970   Norton Commando
1972   Yamaha U7E
1970   BMW R50/5
1976   Honda CB750F

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2012, 08:28:28 AM »
I wonder if it could be the condensers.... If they are old and weak they may not have enough storage capacity any more so when you get up in the rev range it may be arcing back through the points instead.  Would be a cheap fix if that's what it is.

You could also check that the condensers are making a solid connection.

IW

Offline lucky

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2012, 08:37:29 AM »
The bike needs a complete work up.
Any pro shop would have taken care of ALL issues before syncing carbs. That is the VERY LAST STEP.
Any shop that is good would never sync carbs until all those other concerns were taken care of.

Also if they are 1978 carbs and it has not been rejetted for those pods , it will NEVER run right.

The question IS what jets? and what needle changes?

But not till everything else i taken care of on the tune up list.

To save you a lot of hell........
Accelerator pump system and jets all working.
Pods.
Aftermarket exhaust.
#120 main jets.
#42 idle jets.
Mixture screws 1 turn open.
Slide needles 1978 (non  adjustable), shimmed with one .020 shim sitting on top
of the pocket in the bottom of the slide. That will be .020+.012=.032 thousandths total.

Then sync.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 08:41:14 AM by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2012, 08:40:30 AM »
I have a 78 also. I thought 2 cylinders were out but it would sound like a washing machine. I think the carbs are still clogged. The mains not the idle jets.

It is VERY unlikely that a main jet will be clogged.

It is VERY likely that the push in idle jets are clogged.

Offline lucky

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2012, 08:44:56 AM »
All great questions from everyone above.  Take one of those cool shows on TV where guys trick out an awesome bike and remove the people that know anything and insert me and two other guys in my church who know very little about engine mechanics and you've got our situation.

First off, it's a frank'n bike with a springer front end and a series of aftermarket add-ons and customizations, but primarily cosmetic, electrical and suspension.  The exhaust, frame and engine have no modifications to my knowledge.

To answer all of your questions, I'm not sure.  The "pro-shop" is not an authorized Honda dealer, but they do have a good reputation for quality used bikes.  So is there the potential they're not right? absolutely.  Limited funds prevent us from going too many places for repeated "tune-ups" though.  They disassembled the carbs, cleaned them and synch'd them, but I'd need to run your lists by them on the other things. 

Thanks for the suggestions and I appreciate the patience with this newbie.  I'll work with what you gave me and go from there.  Thanks.

There is almost NO shop that will know about those carbs on that bike in great enough detail to get it running right.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 08:52:16 AM »
Clogged idle jets won't stop it from revving out. If the mains are still pulling fuel it will still pull. Clogged idle jets will make it idle horribly and bog when transitioning to WOT.

IW

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2012, 09:03:20 AM »
Clogged idle jets won't stop it from revving out. If the mains are still pulling fuel it will still pull. Clogged idle jets will make it idle horribly and bog when transitioning to WOT.

IW
Tat was my point but i guess Lucky doesn't get off the idle jets.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2012, 11:42:56 AM »
Clogged idle jets won't stop it from revving out. If the mains are still pulling fuel it will still pull. Clogged idle jets will make it idle horribly and bog when transitioning to WOT.

IW
Tat was my point but i guess Lucky doesn't get off the idle jets.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Actually, it is possible.  It would be a very rare thing to have the much larger main jet orifices clogged with debris and the tiny pilot jets not clogged.
Bike has pods and nearly no back pressure exhaust.  This will make the stock carbs deliver far less fuel than it needs, and the pilots do make a contribution at mid range and higher throttle settings.  It may well be that pilot jets are part of the problem.  Then again klugey bikes tend to have untested and irrational mods made to them; drilled jets, clogged emulsion tubes, carb floats upside down, gas filters clogged with rust and debris, bad points, bad condensers, bad wires, bad plugs, etc.  Really, it could be anything, or several things.  It is going to take time (possibly a lot) to refine out all the deviations that have been made, and make the bike a working assemblage of parts.   
If I were a shop owner, I'd think twice about taking on such a project unless the owner had deep pockets and commited to delve into them.  I wouldn't work for free or make donations that would jeopardize my livelihood.  Once a shop starts to work on a project bike, they generally own it, as the vast attention it needs, make the bills high and the owner refuses to pay the "outrageous" costs.  And, this bike and the very limited number of people interested in it, means it is an all around losing investment in time and money, as they will never get the value of parts and labor put into the bike.

In any case, the spark plug deposits should tell a decent story about how it is running.

Also, taking the head pipe temps, even if only relative to each other, would be useful diagnostic information.

Still, I'd address the normal routine maintenance, if for no other reason than to establish a baseline of known good portions of the machine, thus beginning the process of elimination, and KNOWING what is NOT the problem(s).

Cheers,

P.S. For the record, that bike is NOT a 78 - CB750.  Although, it may use an engine unit from one.  And, that seems to be the only thing we actually KNOW about the bike.

Edit: I just took another look at the picture, and it does NOT have carbs from a 78 - CB750.  They appear to be an earlier style and painted black, as well.
The bike is going to need some knowledgeable attention, which is best performed by the owner.  Unless the owner doesn't mind paying for someone else's knowledge and skill (or their training).

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 11:49:08 AM by TwoTired »
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Offline Jiminy Indy

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 12:48:48 PM »
Yep - do all the usual fairly easy standard tune-up things first (plugs, points, valves, timing) and eliminate the usual suspects first. You can download the shop manual on this site and if that doesn't fix your problem, then progress to all the great suggestions above.

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Offline andrewk

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »
Quote
Edit: I just took another look at the picture, and it does NOT have carbs from a 78 - CB750.  They appear to be an earlier style and painted black, as well.

I thought I was the only person that noticed.  I don't even think they're 657's, but I can't really tell- it look like they are CV carbs though.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2012, 02:36:42 PM »
Quote
Edit: I just took another look at the picture, and it does NOT have carbs from a 78 - CB750.  They appear to be an earlier style and painted black, as well.

I thought I was the only person that noticed.  I don't even think they're 657's, but I can't really tell- it look like they are CV carbs though.

I don't know of any CV carbs that used the wire bail/retainer on the carb bowls.  I don't know if they are B750A, 7A, 657A, & 657B, or 064A though.  The owner will have to look at them and read the numbers.  But, it may not matter if the internal parts are buggared.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline lucky

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2012, 02:46:26 PM »
Clogged idle jets won't stop it from revving out. If the mains are still pulling fuel it will still pull. Clogged idle jets will make it idle horribly and bog when transitioning to WOT.

IW

Good point Iron_worker

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Honda CB-750 '78 running slow
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 07:11:02 PM »
+1 - give it a full 3000 mile tuneup. Are you certain it's running on all four? When running, touch the head pipes with a wet towel and you'll be able to tell
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