Author Topic: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins  (Read 4552 times)

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Offline bootlegskate

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Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« on: October 16, 2012, 07:50:20 PM »
Hello,

I acquired a frame and engine from my twin brother a while back and just got to disassembling it.  He bought it from some guy who did not provide any detailed info, sold the project as he didnt have time to work on it.

As you can see the only stampings on the pistons are the "300" mark near the wrist pin.  Does anyone have any clue on what these are and are they worth re-using for my rebuild.  I have read some info about a 580cc hop up kit for the cb500 in an old honda article and have also seen the henry abe kits (spelling?)

Can any of you good guys help me in identifying these parts and also where I can find new rings, gaskets, and bearing for the rebuild?

Thanks!
Josh















I also found this part laying against one of the rods, I have no idea where it goes or what its for.  The engine has not run in a while, so I dont think it caused any damage.  It looks to be some type of flow valve....




Also, the wrist pin retainers look to be nylon bushings, are these okay to replace with new or should I get the traditional c-clips?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 08:30:17 PM by bootlegskate »

Offline dave500

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2012, 01:05:48 PM »
that small dowell goes between the case and barrell,its an oil restriction you should have two,down load the parts list,thats been bored way over size,is it a 550 barrell?itll have 544cc embossed on the front lower right if it is.

Offline JohnG

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2012, 03:28:10 PM »
My guess is the "300" indicates stock Honda 750 pistons, consistent with the 61 mm
approximate bore you have.

Seems like I recall from long ago that 750 pistons might be used in the 500 block . . .

Others may want to comment on whether this is a reliable setup or not   . . . .
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 05:10:11 PM »
My guess is the "300" indicates stock Honda 750 pistons, consistent with the 61 mm
approximate bore you have.

Seems like I recall from long ago that 750 pistons might be used in the 500 block . . .

Others may want to comment on whether this is a reliable setup or not   . . . .

This turns them into a 570cc (I think that's the right number) engine.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline andrewk

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2012, 05:17:07 PM »
I've never seen a stock 750 piston with valve reliefs that large.  Perhaps machined after the fact?

Also, what is up with those nylon pin retainers?

Offline HOSA

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 06:25:18 PM »
Notice skirts shorter than stock 750. Those are Teflon bushings/buttons ,been using for years in HY-PER Engines. Possibly old Wiseco or powroll  kit? Just my 2 cents worth.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 06:27:35 PM by HOSA »
Doug

Offline bootlegskate

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 09:32:13 PM »
@Dave:  Thanks, I found the other one. It was still in the block luckily.  The barrel is actually a 500cc, my bike is a 1973.

@JohnG:  The 750 pistons, from what I have read, use a 3pc oil ring.  These pistons have a one piston oil ring as seen in the photos.   I have also read about using 61mm 750 pistons in a 500/550 setup, but I dont think these pistons are Honda as the only marking is "300".

@HOSA:  I only found 5 Teflon bushings still intact to the wrist pins, guess I need to crack the block open and search for them before I rebuild.

How does one properly replace the crank bearings? Is there a need for machinging or just honing? 

Thanks!




Offline dave500

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2012, 01:06:18 AM »
i had a 61mm over sized 550 barrel and pistons amoungst my engine collection,the pistons turned out to be supplied by bert kingston here in australia from years ago,they had the one piece oil ring,i wasnt interested in it so i sold it,let someone else play with it all,itll need a thicker head gasket to clear.


try and find a std bore 500 barrel and have it bored first oversize,then use xl125 pistons,they have a domed crown and the same wrist pin height,unless you really want to go with a big bore.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 01:59:39 AM by dave500 »

Offline JohnG

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2012, 06:28:48 AM »
Honda used a one piece oil ring for a number of years before going 3 piece and then to thinner rings.  Thus you can, if you use those pistons again, upgrade the rings to  3 piece oil.

On the source of the pistons:  in the 70s, there were many suppliers of speed parts for SOHC Honda.    RC Engineering, Powroll, Yoshimura, Wiseco and others I have forgotten.

When they developed big bore kits there were two routes to go for pistons.  Forged with their own design  or sand cast from the same Japanese contractors Honda used.  My vague recollection is that Yoshimura got pistons the latter route, thus able to tout their parts as having the same reliability and quality as Honda's.  But they got them with an unmachined dome so they could develop their own compression ratio  (obviously higher than the stock 9.0 ).   Similarly they, or a machine shop, could machine the wrist pin area for Teflon buttons.   A shop like Yoshimura would also be using a higher lift cam (they liked high RPMs!) hence they would develop the piston kit in conjunction with the 500/550 head and the intended camshaft.

That is my guess - nothing more - as to why the domes are a bit higher.  Also the 500 combustion chamber is of course different than the 750 so what results for a compression ratio in one motor will not be the same in another.

Question:  what on earth do you do for a head gasket in this motor ??

Crankshaft and bearings:  unless the motor was abused with dirty oil or lack of oil you should find the bearings and crank in pretty good shape.  Plastigauge checking might be a good place to start.
1976 CB750F - original owner
1971 CB450
1979 CB750F
1982 CB900F
1983 CB1123F - Rick Stetson motor

Offline Big Jay

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 12:45:59 AM »
Those pin buttons make it look like it would be an old Powroll kit.  They are cast pistons made in Japan.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2012, 09:43:26 PM »
Big Jay has it right: Powroll used to modify 750 pistons from the K0-K2 engines to run in their 500cc big-bore kits. They used the nylon buttons for the piston pins. They relieved the valve pockets to fit their high-lift cams that went with the kits I remember seeing.

You can still get the correct 1-piece oil rings for those pistons: either Honda or on eBay from Mrssuperdeals. She sells MC rings, with the 1-piece oil rings. The 3-piece will not directly fit the narrower 1-piece oil ring lands properly: they are .004" (.01mm) wider for the 3-piece rings. You can use the 1-piece in the 3-piece lands, but they don't fit well (or at all) the other way around.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bootlegskate

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2012, 01:44:44 PM »
Has the powroll kit been proven as reliable?  I have a 550 cylinder and pistons I could use instead of the powroll setup I took off the 500 bottom end.  I checked the fitment of the 550 sleeves going into the bottom case and the sleeves fit.  I am sort of stuff as to what I should do, reuse the powroll kit or put the 550 cylinder and pistons in. 

So rings are still available for the powroll kit but what about head/ cylinder gaskets?

Thanks All for the the help!

-Josh

Offline dave500

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2012, 01:47:25 PM »
use the 550 if its any good,a few more cubes and you can rebore it later on if you want.

Offline bootlegskate

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2012, 10:02:44 AM »
Although the 550 cylinder and sleeves fit into the top crank case. When I set the cylinders into the crank case, it does not fit completely flat, there is a little rocking of the cylinders. I checked the surfaces and they are flat. I have to look further to see what's going on. I may try to bolt them together with no gaskets to see If they sit flat.

Offline dave500

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Re: Need Help Identifying Pistons, Sleeves, and Wrist Pins
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2012, 11:46:39 AM »
make sure the alignment dowells are clean and their holes dont have debris in them,also where they sit in the case and barrel must be clear or it might cause fouling.