Author Topic: Cb550 charging issue  (Read 3309 times)

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Offline mattporter637

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Cb550 charging issue
« on: November 09, 2012, 05:05:21 PM »
I am having a charging issue with my 1978 550. The stator was grounding out to the case so I replaced that. No issues at the stator anymore. When I replaced the stator the regulator took a dive. It was only putting out 10.6 at 4000 rpm's. I purchased and regulator rectifier combo from Oregon parts. Awesome guy and the part itself is very well made. Anyways, I hooked it all up and the regulator is only kicking out as much as the battery is at any given rpm. For example, ahe regulator kicks out 11.67 at 1100 rpm while the battery is putting out the exact same at the same rpm. According to Oregon parts I should run the engine at 2000 rpm's and then adjust the regulator to 14.5. I have adjusted the regulator and can not get it to make any difference in the power put out at a given rpm. I am at a loss. It seems that as long as the battery and the regulator are putting out the same power at any given rpm then things should stay charged. Why do most people suggest the regulator put out more than the 12 volts supplied by the battery. This is my first bike and I have become very familiar with the electrical system on it since the purchase. I have tested and retested the system from every different direction. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Offline mattporter637

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 05:18:52 PM »
One other thing. When I replaced the stator the starter solenoid only clicked when the electric ignition button is pressed. It no longer clicks at all. I know that the regulator receives current from the solenoid that is connected to the positive lead on the battery. Does this have anything to do with the issue?
   

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2012, 07:10:09 PM »
I don't think you understand the regulator's function.  It only indirectly maintains the system voltage.  The Battery state is the primary dominant factor in the system voltage.  And the "regulator's" primary function is the keep the battery from overcharge when and if the alternator can make more power than what the bike uses.

Some basics.  The 550 has a 150 watt peak alternator output.  It can only produce this much power if it's magnetic field is driven to full strength AND the rotor is spinning fast enough.
At idle and with full field strength, the alternator can only make about 1/3 of peak capability, or about 40-50 watts.
The stock bike (you never told us if your bike was stock, electrically) consumes about 120 watts whenever the key switch is in the ON position.  What isn't produced from the alternator is drawn from battery storage until it is depleted.

A fully charged and rested battery will have 12.6-12.8 volts without a load attached.  The voltage will fall lower than this when loaded, and drop lower as the storage capacity is depleted.  (This is why charging systems are tested only when a known good, fully charged battery is present in the system.) 

When the battery is recharged, it should not be allowed to attain more than 14.5 Volts peak.  More than this and the battery can be damaged, and that is the true function of the regulator, to never allow the battery voltage to climb higher than 14.5 V.  The regulator does this by controlling the field strength of the alternator.  When the battery voltage falls lower than about 13.2V, the regulator applies full battery voltage to the alternator field, allowing the alternator to be all it can be at any given RPM.  Clearly if the the alternator is putting out 50 Watts and the bike is using 120 watts, there is no power excess to raise the battery storage level, and the voltage level can never reach 14.5 V.

On the other hand, if the engine is revving at 5000 RPM, the alternator should be making 150 Watts, and with the same bike load, there is 30 watts excess to provide restorative energy to the battery and raise the voltage commensurate with its charge state.  If depleted, it can take 10 hours or more to reach full charge state and 14.5 V  (again, this is why you must test with a known good fully charged battery.)  Once the battery is restored to full storage capacity, the Voltage "regulator" notes this and reduces the voltage sent to the alternator field, which lowers the alternator output strength and prevents overcharge damage.

Essentially, the alternator can provide up to 13 amps and the bike uses 10 of them.  The battery can produce or consume 100's of amps, depending on it's charge state.  IT is the dominant factor in the bike system voltage, so you MUST be mindful of its charge state when examining the charging system.

 I will say that the Cb550 is particularly hindered by headlight "upgrades" and ignition system changes, that the 750 can usually tolerate.

Of course connectors, fuse clip terminals, and switch contacts can degrade and consume voltage before it can get to the alternator field, which can make a 150 watt peak alternator put out 100 watts peak due to voltage starvation.  Pretty much all these things can be properly diagnosed with proper application of multimeter probes.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Rgconner

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 07:30:05 PM »
One think TwoTired did not mention:

Charge your battery before adjusting.

The CB550 does not have permanent magnets, it has electromagnets on the fixed and moving parts of the alternator.

So if you battery is down too low, and it probably is based on the solenoid clicking, it does not provide enough voltage to get the alternator up to full production. 

Charge it back up, see how it runs.
1975 CB550K aka "Grease Monkey"

bollingball

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2012, 08:18:27 PM »
One think TwoTired did not mention:

Charge your battery before adjusting.

The CB550 does not have permanent magnets, it has electromagnets on the fixed and moving parts of the alternator.

So if you battery is down too low, and it probably is based on the solenoid clicking, it does not provide enough voltage to get the alternator up to full production. 

Charge it back up, see how it runs.

 The Battery state is the primary dominant factor in the system voltage.

  (This is why charging systems are tested only when a known good, fully charged battery is present in the system.)

(again, this is why you must test with a known good fully charged battery.)

  The battery can produce or consume 100's of amps, depending on it's charge state.  IT is the dominant factor in the bike system voltage

TT did not mention what ::) ::)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 08:20:20 PM by bollingball »

Offline mattporter637

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 04:20:13 AM »
I have been recharging the battery to full capacity each time. Even at full charge it is putting out 12.5 or so without any load applied to it. Thanks for the clarification of how the charging system works. How many amps should the alternator be putting out when the bike is at idle?  Thanks again.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 10:35:14 AM »
Volts = electrical potential
Amps = electrical force in motion
The formulas for calculation are in the wheel below.  But essentially 50 Watts @ 12v is about 4.2 amps.   150 Watts @ 12v is about 12.5 A.  120 watts @ 12 V is about 10 A

An old worn battery may have reduced plate area.  This means that a simple voltage test may appear good, but it will be unable to maintain voltage when a load is placed on it.
12.5v is either measurement error or a less than known good battery.

Below is a repeat posting for diagnosing charging system faults/operation.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline mattporter637

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Re: Cb550 charging issue
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 02:13:56 PM »
Twotired. Thanks for the help. There was a lot that I did not know and those posts are awesome. I will run through the steps and repost later with a status. Thanks again.