Author Topic: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?  (Read 3181 times)

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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« on: July 08, 2006, 03:44:27 PM »
I have a question about the Master Cylinder.

Disc brakes are "self-retracting" in that they use the vacuum effect of the returning piston sucking the pads away from the disc when the lever (or pedal) is released.  My pads don't feel like they are retracting well enough when I release the lever, but they can be pushed back easily by pressing on the caliper.  I think it is a lack of vacuum in the lines that are not allowing the pads to fully retract.

I have done all the usual things (new piston seal, cleaned the area throughly, bleed, etc), except a M/C rebuild.  I believe that by rebuilding it, giving it a good cleaning and replacing all the seals, pistons and springs inside the M/C, that I could restore normal vacuum to the lines and the pads would retract fully, eliminating my brake drag.

Is this a sound theory?  I have the kit and am going to do it anyway, but I am wondering if it will have a noticable effect.

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2006, 05:08:48 PM »
A rebuild can't hurt, but one thing to check for sure is the very small hole at the bottom of a dimple in the M/C. It may be clogged.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2006, 06:18:44 PM »
I have a question about the Master Cylinder.

Disc brakes are "self-retracting" in that they use the vacuum effect of the returning piston sucking the pads away from the disc when the lever (or pedal) is released.  My pads don't feel like they are retracting well enough when I release the lever, but they can be pushed back easily by pressing on the caliper.  I think it is a lack of vacuum in the lines that are not allowing the pads to fully retract.


Actually, the disc pad is retracted by theO-ring in the caliper. When the brake is applied, it deforms (stretches a little), then it pulls the pad away when you let go by realigning itself. When the O-ring gets old, it lets the caliper slip past it instead of holding on with rubbery friction, and the caliper/pad doesn't return well.

Also, it takes very little crud in the edges and crevices around the pad to make them stick OUT. I usually polish the outside circumference of my pads with sandpaper and ScotchBrite, then apply grease around it. This both makes the brake smoother and prevents ingress of crud leter. Honda's earliest manuals recommended this procedure, the later ones just said "clean well around the pads".
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Offline cbjunkie

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2006, 06:32:59 PM »
sounds like a tidbit FAQ to me - what do you think, Bob...
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2006, 07:06:04 PM »
He's got lots of valuable tid-bits. I'm still thinking about the detail of his explanation of tubulance in the petcock passages to explain the lean condition running on reserve.  :o Some valuable insights for sure.
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Offline cbjunkie

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2006, 07:10:54 PM »
do you remember that movie, "Incredible Journey"? the team of scientist get shrunk down and injected into a human body - then this theme has been comedy-ized also...That's how HondaMan makes me feel when I read his posts - like I'm in a little invincible submarine inside the bike...

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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2006, 07:24:32 PM »
I think it was called "Fantastic Voyage".
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2006, 10:18:39 PM »
Yeah. Incredible Journey was the cat and dog that walked across the continent to get to the family that moved without them and at the end was all purrs and tail wags...
If someone pulled that #$%* on me and I walked 2000 miles to track them down, it wouldn't be a hugfest.

Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2006, 10:35:33 PM »
Brand-new O-ring, rebuilt caliper.

Your hypothesis is wrong. Sorry.  You normally are the GURU, but not in this case.  I have done EVERYTHING except this and I think this is the last step.  I NEED to rebuild my caliper.  I'll let you know how it goes.

Offline ofreen

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2006, 10:55:41 PM »
My pads don't feel like they are retracting well enough when I release the lever, but they can be pushed back easily by pressing on the caliper.

What is it that causes you to believe the pads are not retracting enough?  Does the rotor get hot after a short ride?
Greg
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Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2006, 11:02:42 PM »
My pads don't feel like they are retracting well enough when I release the lever, but they can be pushed back easily by pressing on the caliper.

What is it that causes you to believe the pads are not retracting enough?  Does the rotor get hot after a short ride?

Noise of dragging pads, rotor discoloring, the fact that I examine my brakes after every ride and note weird noises and brake behavior.

WHY does no one believe me?  They think I just making this crap up to impress people on some internet bulletin board for fans of 30-year-old technology?  I could find better ways to spend my time than that you know....

I thought you guys were with me....

Offline ofreen

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 01:40:27 AM »
Noise of dragging pads, rotor discoloring, the fact that I examine my brakes after every ride and note weird noises and brake behavior.

WHY does no one believe me?  They think I just making this crap up to impress people on some internet bulletin board for fans of 30-year-old technology?  I could find better ways to spend my time than that you know....

It's not a matter of not believing you, I was just looking for a little more detail on the extent of the symptoms.  A little bit of drag or rubbing is normal, but shouldn't cause the rotor to get more than just slightly warm.  If it is getting discolored, it is getting hot, so thanks for the info.  It could well be a problem with the master cylinder.  Bob's suggestion is a good place to look.  Let us know if the MC cleaning and rebuild solves the problem.
Greg
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Offline merc2dogs

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 08:14:14 AM »

Hmm, as I've always understood it the pads were't retracted by anything, just pushed back from contact by normal runout of the disk,  every brake job I've ever done I've had to spread the pads apart to get the caliper back over the disk.
 That's why the disk brake doesn't need any adjusting mechanism, pressure moves it to the disk, then when realeased the disk moves it out for running clearance, the reservoir provides fluid to take up the space caused by wear on the pad so you don't need more lever travel as the brakes wear.   it's why cars brakes can freeze when parked for a long time. drum brakes have springs to retract them

ken.

 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 10:27:38 AM »
I've got no problem with Hondaman's posting and explanation of piston retracting.
If your caliper is not retracting properly, there can be other causes.

1. The rubber o ring may not be new stock and 30 years old.  Rubber can get hard with age and looses elasticity.

2. Your backing pad may not be adjusted for the .006 free clearance.  Which is the approximate distance the rubber oring should retract the caliper piston. The square section rubber, parallelograms when the piston moves.  Releasing hydraulic pressure allows the rubber to return to square, and retracts the piston thus.  This assumes there is no binding of the piston in the caliper bore, resistance of the brake puck to retract in the bore, or residual hydraulic pressure, as well.  There is also a spring on the caliper arm to aid the free positioning of the caliper pads to the rotor.

3.  There should never be a vacuum in the brake line hydraulics.  There is no mechanism in the assembly to provide such.  As soon as the Master cylinder piston retracts, the hydraulics are exposed to atmospheric pressure, which is the same on the caliper piston face and the hydraulic side, ergo no movement caused by that force.  It may well be that the equalizing hole in the master is plugged, or that the master piston is not fully retracting and realeasing pressure in the hydraulics.  This could easily prevent the caliper piston from retraction.

4.  Pronouncing someone wrong when you STILL don't know the answer is a bit premature.  The Hondaman's theory, or explanation is sound in principle, it just assumes you have a properly working master cylinder and actuating lever, which you have deigned not to verify.

5.  Speaking of which....  Is your brake lever the stock one that allows the piston in the master to retract fully?

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 11:02:44 AM »
I've got no problem with Hondaman's posting and explanation of piston retracting.
If your caliper is not retracting properly, there can be other causes.

1. The rubber o ring may not be new stock and 30 years old.  Rubber can get hard with age and looses elasticity.

2. Your backing pad may not be adjusted for the .006 free clearance.  Which is the approximate distance the rubber oring should retract the caliper piston. The square section rubber, parallelograms when the piston moves.  Releasing hydraulic pressure allows the rubber to return to square, and retracts the piston thus.  This assumes there is no binding of the piston in the caliper bore, resistance of the brake puck to retract in the bore, or residual hydraulic pressure, as well.  There is also a spring on the caliper arm to aid the free positioning of the caliper pads to the rotor.

.......................
.......................

5.  Speaking of which....  Is your brake lever the stock one that allows the piston in the master to retract fully?


My brake caliper was not letting go of the rotor.  Everyone pitched in, and I got the thing fixed.  But it was a hard fix for me.  I assumed my problem was based in changing from DOT 3 to DOT 5.  But like a lot of technical issues (I'm finding) there was more than one cause, and the causes were inter-related in such a way as to make the final, ultimate problem even more complex.

Two Tired's number 5 (above) was key for me.  It was astonishing to me how little tolerance for error there is with the lever dimensions, and their relationship with the MC cylinder head.

Number one was important for me to understand too.  I cleaned out the o-ring channel carefully (brass wheel on a Dremmel) and then put in the new o-ring.  It was interesting for me to see, once doing that, that the outside edge of the o-ring was precisely even with the cylinder wall when I ran my finger inwards.  However, the trailing (deeper) inside edge of the o-ring protruded a bit into the cylinder.  I don't know if the channel is cut so that it does that, but when the o-ring is just sitting there it looks perfectly symetrical.  Then, installed it kinda goes uneven, like I said.  You can feel the difference with your finger.

So when I understand how the o-ring grabs the piston like it does, it's easy for me to see how the retraction is accomplished by this minute buckling of the o-ring itself.  It's kind of like a mechanical assist to the hydraulic system maybe - I don't know.

Another procedure that I learned was important for me was the backing (inside) pad clearance (number 2, above).  I did not realize how important that clearance was.  After I used my feeler gauge to set it precisely I was very pleased with how much it helped.

During the whole process (and before I really figured out the exact problems I had) I rebuilt the MC with a Honda kit I got from a friend.  Although my old MC may have lasted another while, it was obvious once I had it out, that it wasn't going to last much longer.

Good luck with it.


Offline GroovieGhoulie

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 11:31:36 AM »
I've got no problem with Hondaman's posting and explanation of piston retracting.


And i apologize.  I REALLY need to stop drinking and posting.  Apologies to Hondaman, who has been an invaluble resource to me.

1. The rubber o ring may not be new stock and 30 years old.  Rubber can get hard with age and looses elasticity.

o-ring is brand new and groove is clean.  Helped, but still doesn't release.

2. Your backing pad may not be adjusted for the .006 free clearance.  Which is the approximate distance the rubber oring should retract the caliper piston. The square section rubber, parallelograms when the piston moves.  Releasing hydraulic pressure allows the rubber to return to square, and retracts the piston thus.  This assumes there is no binding of the piston in the caliper bore, resistance of the brake puck to retract in the bore, or residual hydraulic pressure, as well.  There is also a spring on the caliper arm to aid the free positioning of the caliper pads to the rotor.

Done as well, but no good since I set the clearance, then the first time I press the brake, the piston-side pad doesn't retract enough and the clearance is less than .015".  However, if I manualy push the caliper, forcing thd pad back in, clearance is restored.  I am trying to get it to do this itself.

3.  There should never be a vacuum in the brake line hydraulics.  There is no mechanism in the assembly to provide such.  As soon as the Master cylinder piston retracts, the hydraulics are exposed to atmospheric pressure, which is the same on the caliper piston face and the hydraulic side, ergo no movement caused by that force.  It may well be that the equalizing hole in the master is plugged, or that the master piston is not fully retracting and realeasing pressure in the hydraulics.  This could easily prevent the caliper piston from retraction.

This is my problem I think.


4.  Pronouncing someone wrong when you STILL don't know the answer is a bit premature.  The Hondaman's theory, or explanation is sound in principle, it just assumes you have a properly working master cylinder and actuating lever, which you have deigned not to verify.


And I admitted I was wrong to do that.  To be honest, I don't even remember making that post.  Yes I know I have a problem and I am getting help.

5.  Speaking of which....  Is your brake lever the stock one that allows the piston in the master to retract fully?

Yes, stock lever and th MC and lever work as advertised, I just want them to STOP working when I want them to.

Who wants to feed a dog that bites them?

Go ahead.  I'm wearing pretty thick gloves.  Cringe.

I am already feeling #$%*ty enough about this.  I really do suck as a human being.

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 11:40:51 AM »
This might not have anything to do with anything, but one thing i didn't mention that I did was to use that Dow Corning High Vacuum Grease on the pad pucks.  You can just tell when you squeeze it out of the tube that it's way better than the syl-crap stuff I was using before.  And even before I changed levers, I got some (more or less) squeaking noises from the front brake.   It's been over a thousand miles since I used that grease, and not a peep from down there.  I think it's made a difference.  (My shop manual says it's for lubrication and for protection from the elements.)

Offline techy5025

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 09:11:53 PM »
Is it possible that that "square" o-ring is not square but has one edge that
needs to go in first...ie has a smaller or larger diameter?  ???

I pondered this when I rebuilt my caliper, but decided that it didn't matter.
I set my slave pad to be as close as possible to the disk and not touch.  This
seems to give me the best results.

Jim
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Zane

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Re: Rebuilding M/C. Would that help vacuum and pad release?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2006, 06:33:22 AM »
Is it possible that that "square" o-ring is not square but has one edge that
needs to go in first...ie has a smaller or larger diameter?  ???

I pondered this when I rebuilt my caliper, but decided that it didn't matter.
I set my slave pad to be as close as possible to the disk and not touch.  This
seems to give me the best results.

Jim


I thought that too, for a bit.  But I installed it both ways, to check, and it didn't seem to matter what edge went in first - the thing always seems a little narrower along the deeper edge.  That's what made me think the groove itself had a slanted bottom.

And I also found setting the inside (slave) pad to a close distance really helped.  (Usually my Chilton manual is pretty good, but for that setting it only tells you to back off the set screw a certain amount from tight.  I think that maybe the threads in the fork that hold that screw are a little loose with age, and that setting it like that isn't the best way to do it on an old bike.  So Two Tired's instructions really helped me get it right at .006.)