Author Topic: FIRE IN THE HOLE...  (Read 3107 times)

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Offline cbjunkie

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FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« on: July 07, 2006, 09:52:07 PM »
Friday - late afternoon:

So I got my new Dyna coils in the mail today and rushed home from work to put them in - Bike has not been firing on #4 and I've been running an old set of coils as temps for the last week - the connections were not so good and sometime, about 5 days ago #4 started missing and then quit.

I haven't ridden in 4-5 days...Anyway, got the new coils in, simple instructions and fitted the new plug wires as well - it went together like clockwork, put the tank back on, key in, switch on, fuel

...hit the starter button and immediately notice this slow acrid smoke coming out from underneath the tank and (it had gotten dark at this point) an orange glow, getting brighter!

reached down - petcock to off, switch to off and key to off all while leaping off the bike - the ignition wire from the ignition switch is AFLAME so I clamp down over it with a rag.

After the fire is out I get a closer look - the wires are completely fried! This is a new, aftermarket ignition switch that I got off Ebay last year and never gave me a problem - plugged right in (round) and fired up.

Well now the insulation is melted back and the copper is fused and melted - this was a serious burn and fortunately there was no fuel dripping around or I wouldn't be writing this right now...  :P

Has anyone else experienced this? Did I do something wrong when hooking up the new coils? they are the green set - from Z1, the electronic ignition (also Dyna) I've been running with the old stock coils for a month or so with no problems. I followed the directions to the letter.

What the hell happened???

thanks all,
junkie out...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

Offline techy5025

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2006, 10:04:42 PM »
My guess would be that when you put the tank back on, you
pinched a wire to the tank or frame creating an excess current
flow which fryed the switch.  :o

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2006, 10:06:22 PM »
okay - option one: a pinched wire...

i DID sorta re-route the ignition wire when I was putting on the coils...hm...

Does anybody think that this is in any way related, or COULD be related to my wiring of the coils?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 10:10:20 PM by cbjunkie »
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

prsman23@hotmail.c

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 10:11:10 PM »
man talk about bad luck junkie! Hope it gets sorted out... before the ever so crowded sohc archie ride

Offline 750goes

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 10:17:17 PM »
glad the rag did the trick, bet it scared the s$%t out of you...

how hot was that wire - melting copper ????

I would take a real good look over all the ignition wiring for anything that looks good still - you still have lots to burn (check I mean)..

I have just rebuilt my harness, and having found several wires throughout the harness, where on first appearance everything looked good, only to find there were rub spots, and bare wiring exposed next to connections not properly sealed off etc, I would check the length of the wiring that got fried for integrity, cause its the bit you don't check that will fry you again..
Run a new wire if need be - cheap and simple -then you can trust it... :)

why did you re-route the ignition wire ?

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 10:26:34 PM »
Quote
why did you re-route the ignition wire ?

The Dyna coils are fatter - before the ignition wire ran just below, but i had to kind of twist it around to get it to fit...

Thing is, all the moving and twisting I did was on the harness - the actual wires coming out of the ig switch had plenty of play in them and weren't bound up at all - they're the ones that melted.

so...nobody thinks it's because I did something wrong with the wiring of the coils? I don't know much about resistance and stuff, but I can't logically see why that particular part of wire should have gotten so hot... ???

Prsman - I'll have a new one on the way in an hour... bummed not to ride this cool weekend - I may hook up the kill switch the PO had on there -  :D - he didn't need a key where he was from...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

Offline techy5025

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2006, 10:43:54 PM »
A short on the "point" side of your coils would not be a problem as
approximately 50% of the time that short exists through your points or
the transistor in your new system. A short on the battery side of the
coils would cause a large current flow.  The fuse under your left side
cover should have blown long before you melted wires though...is it?
Did the new wiring somehow bypass the fuse... i.e. a direct connection
to the battery?

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Boomologist

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2006, 10:48:12 PM »
Wow! Hate it when that happens.
I would bet that one of the wires that melted was in direct contact with ground. That could be from a pinched wire, a hot wire that was mistakenly connected to ground or an internally shorted coil. I would start by testing the coils with an ohm meter to rule out that one is shorted internally. If it is shorted the manufacture owes you something. Then carefully re-trace your wiring to rule out that something was connected wrong.
Glad you got the fire out in time. I've had two hair singing experiences in the past two years and that's more than enough.

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2006, 11:02:04 PM »
TECH - ah. yes, the fuse - i forgot about that.

the fuse blew last week and i was about 4 miles out - had to hook the wires up directly - and they still are.

that's why the fuse didn't blow - i'll fix that tomorrow first thing.

BOOM - thanks for the well wishes - i was pretty scared for a second or two - especially because i was imagining the tank going up...

i don't know much about testing using an ohm meter - can you describe the procedure for me? or if it is too complicated, can you recommend a "testing for dummies" source?

much appreciated - thanks guys.
junkie out...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

Offline mkramer1121

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 11:17:01 PM »
Get a Multimeter.  Set it to ohms.  Set it for less then 100 ohms (if it is a direct short, it will read less then 1 ohm).  Connect one end to the bare wire, and the second to bare metal on the frame.  If it reads less then 1 you have a direct short.

Boomologist

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2006, 11:24:02 PM »
>>>the fuse blew last week and i was about 4 miles out - had to hook the wires up directly - and they still are.<<<

Most likely the ground fault has nothing to do with your new coils if you were experiencing blown fuse before you installed the coils. Look carefully at the wiring insulation for any place that is rubbed bare, loose connection touching ground or pinched wire. If nothing is found do a continunity test of the switch.

There can be many surprises while working on engines in the shop: Last winter while working on a sled I accidentally passed an open flame near a vent tube for the gas tank, which had been emptied and rinsed out with water. It blew up in my face! Split the tank from one side to the other and opened it up about three inches in the middle. Scattered my tools, that were laying on the tunnel, across the shop. I couldn't hear anything for about half an hour.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 04:32:11 AM by Boomologist »

rt

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2006, 12:01:48 AM »
CBJUNKIE - sad to read that but glad you've not been injured. I hope you'll get it sorted out soon.

That reminds me of one occasion a couple of years ago, when I collected my newly-acquired 550F. On my way home the engine suddenly died (Motorway, fast lane...). I pushed her to a near lay-by only to find an eight mil bolt acting as 'main fuse', which has come lose somehow thus cutting the ignition circuit. I put it back in to get home. The PO told me '..the blimmin' thing kept on f**ing blowin' so I sorted that out my way...' . Although I had that fixed once I got home, in retrospect I suppose I was very lucky. 


cheers

ray

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2006, 07:34:47 PM »
update: Saturday night...

Well, I spent all day crawling over the thing - first thing i did this morning was to pop off the headlight and have a look in the bucket - here's what i found...

the black from the ignition switch to the 4 pronged round coupling (it's the older version, 1971) was what originally caught on fire - it trashed all of the wires from the key to the coupling...

but, from the that coupling to the first split-off coupling in the bucket i DID NOT SEE ANY DAMAGE TO ANY WIRES...

then in the bucket the black coming down from the kill switch (RH) was gone, toast, history - the insulation was in gobs and the B/W wire was also affected somewhat, being in closest proximity to the B inside the sheathing

I replaced the B from the kill switch with a new wire, sturdy 12ga, and re checked everything in the bucket, i.e. pulled EVERYTHING apart and re-did it. - keep in mind that there were no problems with anything not working before this happened (except for the fuse of course)

Replaced the old fuse box with a new prong-style fuse, 15a, and hooked up the battery - ignition on (i re-fitted the kill switch the PO was using - no keyed switch anymore - fried) and flipped the RH kill switch

POOF! fuse gone...

Am I in for a new harness??? feck.

junkie out...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

Offline 750goes

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 02:06:33 AM »
Would not have a clue, but sounds "NOT HAPPY JAN" with whatever you did. Putting in stronger gauge wire only lets it draw more current, thereby letting your fuse blow faster.

I'd wait for TT to mention the next step in the process for you, not familiar at all with ignition switches, bypassing...not passing the buck, just not qualified to respond to your problem, but will keep looking at all the expert advice I'm sure is coming.. :)

Offline techy5025

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2006, 09:37:07 AM »
It would appear that that you have almost a dead short to your frame
(ground) somewhere after your "kill" switch.  Should be easy to find
with an ohmmeter.

I would remove the tank and start looking.  ;) .... and keep the fuse in
the circuit....fuses are cheap...bikes are not.  :o

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2006, 09:51:34 AM »
yeah - i'm off to get some coffee and ponder the options... jsaab claims he's gonna maybe ride down and give me a hand, thanks, js...

i bought a gross of fuses yesterday - i'm ready!

junkie out...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

dr. destructo

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2006, 02:57:21 PM »
You'd be luckiest if it was in fact a dead short to ground, because its the intermittant shorts that kill your time diagnosing.  Save all your fuses you bought and do your diagnosing this way-  remove/disconnect the battery from the electrical system.  Remove the fuse that keeps on blowing on you.  For that fuse, in the fuse box where the fuse goes is the 2 sides of the fuse,,the 12 volt supply, and the protected circuit side of where the fuse goes.  Get a multi meter from harbour freight for $5 , or anywhere else, hopefully it will have a diode/contintuity tester built into the ohm setting so you will hear a beeping buzzer sound when you touch the two meter leads together- that will read 0 ohms and it will beep indicating you have continuity- aka a complete circuit from one meter lead to the other.  So take one of the MultiMeter wires and put it on the side of the fuse holder that goes to the circuit its protecting.  Now the fun begins with the other MM lead-  there's various ways to continue here.  You can take the other lead and hook it up to the negative battery wire.  In a perfect world, you would have a reading of OL (out of limits, aka more resistance than the meter can handle), which means you dont have an electrical connection (continuity) from the ground circuit to your powered circuit.  Like I started off with, if you have a short, which you do, hope that you get a very low ohmic reading now/beeping meter when you do this because this is telling you your hot wire is in continuity with your ground wire.  Leave the leads hooked up, hopefully your meter is beeping continuously now.  Now you either zoom in on your suspected trouble spot and start moving the wire/ wiggling the wire harness in question.  If the meter is beeping/reading near 0 ohms , you do have a short and your seeing it before you being verified without blowing fuses. 

Now just hunt around until you move a wire and your beeping ohmmeter stops beeping- it'll probably go to OL when you find the problem and thus remove the hot wire from the ground its touching. 

The danger of it all is that yea, now it seems like you have an instantanious dead short, but maybe while your moving wires around, you may make it more of an intermittant short- meaning you stopped the meter from beeping, but you dont know what fixed it or where it is.  So go easy, dont go crazy on the wire harness, go from the fuse back in the circuit until you find the short.  If you get a cheep meter that maybe doesnt have the continuity diode beeper,, then realize what you want to see here is OL, or the highest reading it goes to which is what you see when you turn it on and set it to read ohms and the leads arent touching.  when you are testing the circuit you dont want it to read 0.X or 1 or 2 ohms- thats a short,,,meaning you have a complete electrical circuit from the 2 multimeter wires your using that happen to be hooked up to ground and power at the same time.

I would guess if you had a short to ground, you would see some "welding slag" -little debris like you get from a bad mig weld near the point of the short- so inscpect all grounds in the area for that clue, with some obvious discoloration.   

What I just described is to find a shorted wire to a ground.  Dealing with a bad electrical uniit like a coil/alternator is a little different but not much. 

this will prevent you from using the blowing fuses technique of wiring diagnosis.

Offline techy5025

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2006, 03:12:20 PM »
Honda made a bad decision...IMHO...and made several wire splices inside the main
wiring harness.  They then insulated them with what appears to be "Scotch" tape.  :o
Then they overwrapped the entire harness with electrical tape. Over the years the
"stickiness" comes off the tape and this could allow a cable splice to become exposed
and short to the frame, tank, etc.

Several of the splices are almost above the key switch and under the tank at least on
the 750.  Might be something to check.

Jim
........
1969 750 K0 (Reborn)
1969 Sandcast 750 K0 (Reborn)
2003 CBR600F4I
........

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: FIRE IN THE HOLE...
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2006, 03:12:50 PM »
tech - right you are - and i was dreading tearing into that bs...

DD, thanks for the excellent primer...turns out it WAS a dead short to ground due to my having hooked up the coils incorrectly.

thankfully, the problem was so obvious that Jim Saab was able to spot it within minutes of arrival - THANKS JIM!!!

the whole fix took about 30 minutes - ignition - set switch - kick once - VZHOOM!

lem tell ya, brosephs, this dyna #$%*e works! solid freakin' power. if you are on the fence skip a few drinks this month and shell out the 120 to jeff from Z1 enterprises - you won't be dissapointed.

Jim and I even had time for a chat with a couple glasses of cool water to soothe our sun-dried throats...

would love to stay and chat, but uh...i'm gonna go for a little ride.

 ;D junkie out...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.