Author Topic: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)  (Read 174200 times)

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Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #525 on: September 27, 2015, 06:48:27 AM »
That thread with the chewed up clutch, I had seen that one before.
My money was on the adjuster screw at the bottom caught up in the lever,
where he is pointing with the pencil, it's not through the hole and being held out too far.
I've never seen one in person so cant tell if it should go through or not, or if it's even a screw through a cylinder, (like the rear brake adjuster).
couldn't find an exploded view of it.
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #526 on: September 27, 2015, 11:00:11 AM »
I appreciate you chiming back here to clarify, enwri. I've studied the parts diagrams for the clutch assembly long enough to know that the aluminum washer really does not belong there. It was more my attitude of "there's gotta be another way to go about this" and frustration that leads me to try these foolish things.
The aluminum shim, where it is now did indeed move the clutch pack out toward the adjuster, enough to do away with the 0.1mm washers and allowing the circlip to barely catch in the groove of the shaft. The circlip did not make that usual "click" sound though so I fear that it's actually not properly on there. I suppose that while I have the assembly on the way that it is, I can try the kickstart a few times to hear/see if there's any contacts or weirdness going on, but I won't.

A Honda bike mechanic I spoke with the other day basically said, "Those aftermarket clutch parts, like, what are the ones, Barnett? Those are the worst!" And when I told him I have EBC, he said, "Those are #$%* too! If you're gonna use aftermarket parts, you're prolly better off sticking with using ALL aftermarket parts - don't mix and match!"

Hondaman has said in another thread:
Quote
I was going to suggest: measure the thickness of the plates. Reason: I haven't found any EBC plates yet that were the correct thickness. Most are too thin. This means you can possibly add an extra steel plate (this works on the 750 to some extent) to make the whole pack thick enough again.

The issue we are seeing is: the steel and fiber plates in the market are getting mixed up with some more modern ones. These newer ones are typically the same thickness as worn-out OEM ones in our bikes. So, if you install a whole stack of them into the clutch, the total height is too low. Then, the lifters cannot lift them far enough apart to stop the drag. Even if you can finesse the lifter to a point where it sorta works, after the plates wear in a bit you can't anymore. With the 750, I get this same e-mail about every 2 months from someone!

On the bikes with the extra-thick first steel plate in the back: you cna install a steel one on top of that, then the new plates. You'll need an extra steel one for this.

If you have the old plates: stack them all up together with a brick on top and let them sit a couple of hours. Then carefully measure the height. Repeat with the new plates. You may well find the new ones are about 0.5mm to 1.0mm thinner stack. That makes 'em drag because they sit too far away from the lifter.
:(

I'll be pulling that aluminum washer out today. Thanks again for the warning, enwri. I'm expecting the Barnett metal plates to arrive tomorrow so I'll be slapping those in and I'll be reporting back.

Offline minimo

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1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #527 on: September 29, 2015, 04:56:54 AM »
Damnit, the Barnett metal plates didn't work in combination with my EBC friction discs. I'm all out of ideas before I try something I'll probably regret.

The Barnett plates are indeed thicker than stock:

Stock Honda metal plate: 1.60mm

Barnett (401-35-078002): ~1.98mm

Definitely thicker but just not enough to raise the assembly of discs/plates for the lifter rod to actuate the lever. Grrr.

The stock Honda Clutch B plate (the doubled one that's riveted together) is actually thicker (4.70mm) than two Barnett metal plates sandwiched together (4.00mm) yet still not enough to lift the rod into the lever.

I've read discussions on swapping out the double metal plate for an added friction disc + metal plate (making it 8 friction discs and 7 steel plates?). I wish I'd kept my old stock friction plates to compare the stack heights between stock and aftermarket. That'd been a more systematic approach rather than measuring individual friction discs and plates.

I'm stuck on what to do.

I probably should have just gone with OEM Honda friction discs from the beginning since there's been success reported across the board on those.

Anyone else out there feel my pain? Here's the parts breakout that's now burned into my brain.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 03:42:14 PM by minimo »

Offline enwri

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #528 on: September 29, 2015, 05:56:09 AM »
If that's the diagram of your clutch, wont taking plates out move the lifter plate/No.9  towards the adjuster?
77 CB 750 k.. 29 years and counting.
91 TDM 850 (No.34) so comfy and soft
8? XJ 550 meh...
76 XL 350 Super Sport stump puller..
80 XR 200 idiot proof
75 MX 250 b dangerous

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #529 on: September 29, 2015, 09:53:03 AM »
It is the diagram of my clutch and I've been going nuts trying to replicate it exactly the way it shows. I've been going by the books this whole time and now you're telling me that I can pull out some plates? That's absurd; but I like it.

Can anyone else concur with pulling out plates?

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #530 on: September 29, 2015, 01:31:27 PM »
Thank you, enwri. Solid advice.
I think my clutch assembly was simply too tall of a stack, and the limited plate movement within the assembly prevented the springs to compress the clutch rod/plate up to reach the lever.
The Barnett set came with 6 total plates, so, I took the Honda stock double "damper" metal plate (4.75mm thick) out of the equation and in its place put in the Barnett one (2.00mm) making the whole stack of disc/plates shorter by 2.75mm. And that, my friends, seems to have done the job. The lifter rod is now actuating with the lever and pulling in the clutch now feels like a nice and squishy dream.

While having the bike on the lift, I put it into 1st gear and pulling in the clutch I can spin the rear wheel with some resistance - greater resistance than in neutral, meaning that the clutch is engaging. At least I think that is how clutches work? I think this is working. Thank you all. I hope this news is helpful to others out there. I'm also coming to terms that not everything has to be by the book.

Onwards.

Offline eoddom

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #531 on: September 29, 2015, 02:16:33 PM »
Love your entire thread man.  I just picked up my first bike (77 CB550K) and have also never owned, driven or worked on bikes.

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #532 on: September 29, 2015, 04:32:59 PM »
Thanks, eoddom.

Take my advice and stop now while you're ahead  :D

Love your entire thread man.  I just picked up my first bike (77 CB550K) and have also never owned, driven or worked on bikes.

Offline eoddom

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #533 on: September 29, 2015, 07:03:43 PM »
Haha I was never good at taking sound advice.  But after reading about the struggles of removing carbs, and me getting mine completely off in about 15 minutes, I feel like I've already come out ahead.

Offline calj737

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #534 on: September 30, 2015, 03:56:20 AM »
Haha I was never good at taking sound advice.  But after reading about the struggles of removing carbs, and me getting mine completely off in about 15 minutes, I feel like I've already come out ahead.
Oh the naivety of the young! Mistakes good fortune for good sense  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline eoddom

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #535 on: September 30, 2015, 04:28:04 AM »
Haha I was never good at taking sound advice.  But after reading about the struggles of removing carbs, and me getting mine completely off in about 15 minutes, I feel like I've already come out ahead.
Oh the naivety of the young! Mistakes good fortune for good sense  ;D ;D ;D

Hah yeah I'm pretty confident it was 95% luck (5% reading tips on this forum).  I'd never claim having any sense though...my fiance would quickly remind me of the 40 year old motorcycle i just put in our garage if I did.

Offline calj737

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #536 on: September 30, 2015, 04:41:14 AM »
..my fiance would quickly remind me of the 40 year old motorcycle i just put in our garage if I did.
Remind her, the motorcycle has lasted longer than she might if she keeps up with the haranguing  8)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline eoddom

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #537 on: September 30, 2015, 05:01:29 AM »
..my fiance would quickly remind me of the 40 year old motorcycle i just put in our garage if I did.
Remind her, the motorcycle has lasted longer than she might if she keeps up with the haranguing  8)

I would but pro-tip = never argue with a pregnant woman.  You'd have better luck poking a sleeping bear.

Offline calj737

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #538 on: September 30, 2015, 05:08:01 AM »
Well congratulations if she's pregnant with your first child together! If she's not, well, then good on you for not provoking her  ;)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline eoddom

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #539 on: September 30, 2015, 05:26:20 AM »
Well congratulations if she's pregnant with your first child together! If she's not, well, then good on you for not provoking her  ;)

Haha this will be daughter number 2.  I'm outnumbered.

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #540 on: October 01, 2015, 12:19:41 AM »

This kind of emptiness feels good.

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #541 on: October 01, 2015, 11:10:21 AM »
Just curious, do BLUE/WHITE and ORANGE/WHITE - running lights lines - only have power when the bike is, ummm, "running"? What makes these lines different from the BROWN and BROWN/WHITE leads, as those all seemingly connect at some point - why that in some key ignition positions are some of the lines powered (i.e. BROWN for the rear tail light) and others have no power?

When the key is in P position, the brake light turns on; why aren't my running lights on when I have them connected to BLUE/WHITE and ORANGE/WHITE?
calj737?

Offline calj737

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #542 on: October 01, 2015, 11:27:04 AM »
If i read the diagram correctly, your Bl/Wht and Or/Wht are powered by BR/WHT which is only switched with the key in position ON, not P. Brown is connected in position P, therefore you have a tail light, but no gauge or running lights. Can you confirm this on your end?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #543 on: October 01, 2015, 11:48:42 AM »
Your interpretation of the diagram is right on.

Gauge illuminates at ON, but why not the running lights? I even tested for continuity at the lead end to the harness and that's fine. Should I be getting 12V readings at ON for BROWN/WHITE, ORANGE/WHITE, and BLUE/WHITE?

Offline calj737

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #544 on: October 01, 2015, 11:49:40 AM »
Yes you should. Do you by chance have a ground issue with the left hand control housing?
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #545 on: October 01, 2015, 11:52:57 AM »
I c. I will report back on this later.
Thanks, calj!!

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #546 on: October 07, 2015, 12:22:49 PM »
Sorry it's taken me a while to report back on the RUNNING LIGHTS. I'm kinda all over the place at the mo' especially with trying to get the bike to idle optimally and tightening up some clutch issues - I figure running lights can be sorted out another time but will definitely get them figured out before registration/inspection.

Happy to report that the Kawasaki Z1 right control switch/start is working and looking good. Thanks for the wiring advice on that, calj737! I may need your advice again on when I get the matching left side control - I like the look of these over the stock Honda controls.

As for the bike's current idling situation, I'm currently running stock size 38 pilots and 110 mains (used Denny Zander's nifty carb rejet formula). Needle clip position is 2nd notch from the top (may need to raise it up to the top as it seems the bike is running a tad rich). 4 into 1 exhaust is stock and I'm running individual foam pods (UNI knockoffs from 4into1.com).
I'm currently wrapping my head around my MotionPro SyncPro and will hopefully get the bike on the road for it's maiden voyage around the block in the next couple of weeks.

Offline minimo

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #547 on: October 30, 2015, 03:59:17 PM »
Happy Halloween!
(that's not my bike)

Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #548 on: October 31, 2015, 06:29:23 PM »
Haha I was never good at taking sound advice.  But after reading about the struggles of removing carbs, and me getting mine completely off in about 15 minutes, I feel like I've already come out ahead.

If no one else has yet told you this....make sure you sign up for the MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) beginner class.  It's a 2-day class, riding their bikes and by the end of it, you'll get a certificate that you take to the DMV to get your license.  It saves you on insurance, gives you discounts with various vendors and, best of all, makes you a better and safer rider.  It should be an absolute requirement for anyone who wants to ride a bike.
Ron

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Offline eoddom

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Re: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)
« Reply #549 on: November 03, 2015, 06:34:38 PM »
I will most definitely be taking a safe riders course, and probably find some intermediate riding courses as well.  Most important mod is always the driver-mod.