Topic: 1977 CB550F IDK (first build)

[minimo]

Calling the wiring maestro, calj737. Calling calj737!

Picked up one of these from 4into1.com to replace mine that had an intermittent START button issue.
These are apparent replicas of the Kawasaki Z1 switch/throttle. I quite like the look of it.
I'm stuck on the wiring and trying to adapt it to my current set up.
Here's what I was able to determine from a post found on dotheton:

RIGHT SWITCH

Red Wire - Energized By Keyed Ignition Switch. Controls power switch (Off, PO, ON).
Blue Wire w/bullet connector - Energized by Keyed Ignition Switch. Pig tailed to Red Wire. Connects to Blue Wire w/socket connector supplies power for starter.
Blue Wire w/socket connector - Energized by Blue Wire w/bullet connector supplies power for starter.
Black Wire - Energizes by Starter Button via the Blue Wire w/socket connector. Connects to starter relay.
Tan Wire - Energized by the Off, PO, On switch. Controls the Off, Run, Off switch. Energizes the Yellow/Red Wire.
Yellow/Red Wire - Energized by the Off, Run, Off, Run switch.

My Honda wiring goes as follows (there are only 5 as opposed to 6 as on the Z1 switch/throttle):
Bk/W
Y/R
Bk
Bk (another one)
Bk/R

Can you or anyone please help me figure out this puzzle?

Thank y'all!

[minimo]

Thank you for chiming in so quickly, calj737!

Interesting.
Firstly, I'd have thought that Y/R on the KZ1 would correspond with that on the 550. As it appears on the KZ1, there's a Y/R on the START switch and another one at the RUN/OFF switch at top.
Here's a side-by-side pic showcasing the innards of my original 550 (left) and the KZ1 (right):

From the bottom (START switch) moving up to the RUN/OFF switch, here's how the wiring goes, respectively for each brand:

HONDA
START - Bk, Y/R, Bk/R (left to right)
RUN/OFF - Bk, Bk/W

KZ1
START - Bk, Y/R
ON/PO/OFF - B/R, B (blue/red seemingly connects to the blue bullet connector, which upon close examination at the other end of the lead, the wire does not have a red stripe. Hmmm)
RUN/OFF - Y/R, Tan

[minimo]

How's this bit of info just received from 4into1:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting us, sorry but we don’t offer technical support. However, since the Kawasaki switch has the function to turn the lights on and off, you wouldn’t use that function unless you want to wire it in that way.
The original switch just has the starter button and the kill switch. You’ve got the wires listed correctly along with their function. We are currently out of the right side switch you ordered so I can’t take a look at one to see where the wires connect. I’d recommend seeing which color wires connect to the starter button function and witch wires connect to the kill function then match them up accordingly. You will have to adapt the terminal connectors to fit your use.

Best of luck to you!

[minimo]

The Tans and Yellow/Reds get piggied...

[minimo]

On peeling back the wire cover revealed that the Blue/Red (light switch) peeled off into Blue (bullet connector) and Red. I guess these wires and this particular switch is not applicable since I already got my light switch on the left handle.

Maybe there could be some other use for this switch down the line...

[enwri]

Just had a read through your thread, nice work, feel I should ask about this though.

Make a long story short, rather than torque the clutch lifter plate bolts down all the way (to about 7 ft/lbs), I backed them off evenly about 2.5 turns on each. I wasn't getting much success with the bolts all the way down but now after backing them off a bit, I buttoned up the clutch cover, adjusted the cable, lined up the dots, and adjusted/tightened down the clutch lever screw/nut and now squeezing in the clutch feels good like it should.

Does that mean the bolts are just loose and the weight of the springs are all that's stopping them turning now?. If so, maybe have a further investigate.
Not a 550 person but principle should be the same for a lot of clutches, maybe someone else might be sure.

[minimo]

Thanks, enwri.

The bolts are not "loose" per se, the compression from the springs keep them and the clutch plate tight. Either way, I couldn't get the clutch to engage if I had the bolts torqued down all the way - maybe I've been doing something wrong here but I could not get the barbell part to rest in the clutch lever dimple. So by backing off the bolts as evenly as I could, I was able to get the barbell to finally rest and mate with the dimple and I'm hoping that the compression of the springs will keep the bolts from turning (in theory). As long as these bolts stay put I figure that as the clutch gets miles and miles of more use, the springs will begin to lose some of its springiness and I can go back in and torque them down fully.

I've asked around and most people have said that they torque the clutch plate bolts down "all the way, but not too tight".

The method I explained is the only way that I could get the clutch feeling good and springy at the handle. I'll keep y'all posted on the clutch once I get the right switch/throttle attached and carbs rejetted; get this bike on the road!

Just had a read through your thread, nice work, feel I should ask about this though.

Make a long story short, rather than torque the clutch lifter plate bolts down all the way (to about 7 ft/lbs), I backed them off evenly about 2.5 turns on each. I wasn't getting much success with the bolts all the way down but now after backing them off a bit, I buttoned up the clutch cover, adjusted the cable, lined up the dots, and adjusted/tightened down the clutch lever screw/nut and now squeezing in the clutch feels good like it should.

Does that mean the bolts are just loose and the weight of the springs are all that's stopping them turning now?. If so, maybe have a further investigate.
Not a 550 person but principle should be the same for a lot of clutches, maybe someone else might be sure.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[enwri]

Just had a read through your thread, nice work, feel I should ask about this though.

Make a long story short, rather than torque the clutch lifter plate bolts down all the way (to about 7 ft/lbs), I backed them off evenly about 2.5 turns on each. I wasn't getting much success with the bolts all the way down but now after backing them off a bit, I buttoned up the clutch cover, adjusted the cable, lined up the dots, and adjusted/tightened down the clutch lever screw/nut and now squeezing in the clutch feels good like it should.

Does that mean the bolts are just loose and the weight of the springs are all that's stopping them turning now?. If so, maybe have a further investigate.
Not a 550 person but principle should be the same for a lot of clutches, maybe someone else might be sure.

Some clutches do work like that, but have notches in the plate and tags on the bolts that catch them and prevent them from turning. If you do, ignore all this and carry on.
If the bolts being 2.5mm out lets the adjuster touch the plate, that means either the adjuster is about 2.5 mm too far away from the clutch lifter plate, or the clutch lifter plate is about 2.5mm too far away from the adjuster.
 Don't have a spare thrust washer lying around do you?
 In behind the whole clutch assembly, spacing it towards the adjuster.
Sorry if I've confused the matter, not familiar with 550s.

[minimo]

So then should I disconnect that Blue/Red (KZ1) to Black (550)? I've already took the other blue out of the equation, as you see. Yeah, unfortunately the light switch kinda throws off this whole thing. I'm thinking after I get all of this sorted I'll consider adapting the light switch into a MISSILE LAUNCH ENGAGE switch.

Yes, the '77 550 has a three-position OFF•RUN•OFF switch

[minimo]

Don't have a spare thrust washer lying around do you?
 In behind the whole clutch assembly, spacing it towards the adjuster.

Thanks for catching this and looking out, enwri. I've had doubts about this part of the clutch installation for some time.

I have the original thrust washer backed behind the clutch assembly and I'll check to see if by adding another washer would give me enough clearance to maintain the circlip in the groove of the shaft. I should also check the barbell, aka clutch lifter rod. Perhaps there's some wear or a flat on one end that I overlooked that could be just enough to back it off from the clutch lever. If the rod looks ok and if I can't add a washer behind the clutch assembly, what do you think if I added a small washer for the rod to rest on and lift up a bit? Anyone know the factory length of the lifter rod?

The bolts do not have notches nor tags to catch and prevent them from spinning, so thanks for pointing this out. Not having the clutch plates torqued down as others have mentioned sounds like it could lead to problems...

Thanks again for your attention to this, enwri. I'm going to investigate a little.


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[minimo]

It's always gotta be something...

Turns out that the thread on the push throttle is different on the KZ1 so I gotta source one of those now. Sigh. Put a fork in me.

[minimo]

Ordered a Kawasaki throttle push cable (Motion Pro 03-0001). Dime City Cycles has it at 38-1/4" so I hope it's long enough (it should be around 39-3/4" up to 40"). We shall see.

Tinkered with the clutch and removed the plate and assembly etc. Again.
The clutch lifter rod measured at 1.8110" (46mm) and showed zero signs of wear - looked pristine.


I took a look at the thrust washer behind the clutch assembly and noticed wear marks on one side that matched the other side (facing out) so I flipped it around. Though not noticeable with this washer, aren't most "thrust"-type of washers supposed to be convex? Upon inspection and laying it down flat on the table, no concavity was noticeable. Anyway, I went with mating this washer with the side matching the obvious wear marks (which in my case meant facing the underside of the clutch assembly). Springs in place, I then torqued the clutch plate bolts down all the way to 7 ft/lbs and greased the lifter rod to keep it in place, slapped the cover back on with a few of those bolts fastened to keep the cover down and started adjusting - loosening/tightening at the handle, then at the lever, and then at the cover - it was kinda all by feel as I took note of the aligning dots for general guidance, and before I knew it, I was able to get a snug and spongey-good feel on the clutch at the handle. Hooray! This is with the clutch plate bolts torqued down all the way as always suggested by others so this is progress. Let's just hope this did the trick (I'm sure there'd be more fiddling later but I think I'm getting a feel for adjusting the clutch cable now).

[goldarrow]

Good work.  I knew something was up with the clutch.  Ready to roll...

[minimo]

Thanks, goldarrow.
Not ready yet. Remember, I work at the pace of around four steps forward and two steps back

I'm still waiting for some resized jets, a throttle cable, and just my luck, I noticed after adjusting the clutch cable and thinking that I got it all right, I saw that I neglected to put the washer that goes on top of the kickstart circlip - it must have fallen out when I took the clutch cover off. Anyway, now that the washer is back on, I'm having issues with the clutch again! It's as though the lifter rod isn't making contact or not seating correctly with the clutch lever - a fight to try to aim the lifter rod into the dimple of the lever. Come to think of it, it's always seemed to be this way since replacing my fiber friction discs. Hmmm... I think there's an issue with thickness here, or lackthereof (that's what SHE said). There might be something to do with the combination of these aftermarket fiber discs (too thin) and the stock Honda metal plates. I'm looking into it...

On a side note while working on the clutch, Clymer states, "insert the lifter rod into the main shaft with the spherical end toward the right side". But it also refers to the cover as the "left crankcase cover" - isn't the clutch cover the RIGHT side? So I'm a little confused and losing faith in this manual.
Another possible misprint on Clymer, I noticed that the "Clutch center" torque specs they have marked as 29-33 ft-lbs!!! LOL. That's pretty ridiculous. I'd be pissed as hell if at this point in the build I'd break off some hex heads or strip threads on my clutch assembly. The proper torque should probably be around 5 - 9 ft-lbs for those of you reluctant to take heed of Clymer.

Next step was to take measurements of my clutch parts. Pretty much consistent numbers across all:

EBC friction disc @ 2.7mm - the manual cites a limit of at least 3.0mm. So if my math is correct, there are 7 friction discs, 7 x (2.7mm - 3.0mm) = 2.1mm Maybe a 2.0mm shim (or 2x 1.0mm shims) behind the clutch assembly as enwri suggested in an earlier post would compensate for the loss in thickness of these discs... Shims behind the clutch springs, perhaps? Or a crush washer behind the lifter rod? Or, how about aftermarket steel clutch plates to go with my aftermarket fiber discs? Anyone have specs on the thickness of the Barnett or Vesrah steel discs? I presume they are thicker. I hope that they are because I'm looking into replacing my stock Honda ones if that's been the issue all along...

Clutch plates @ 1.6mm - no warpage

Springs (uncompressed) @ ~36.3mm

Also something to note is that I found some considerable play upon pushing/pulling on the main shaft with the clutch assembly installed. The main shaft itself moves about 3/16" in and out of the crank case. Is this a common thing?

[Bootsey]

If you haven't seen this thread, there might be some helpful info here for you regarding the clutch.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,145565.msg1655868.html#msg1655868

[minimo]

Thanks for the ref, Bootsey.

I'm convinced that it's the thinner aftermarket friction (fiber) discs that's the cause of the issue here.
My new EBC friction discs have a cumulative difference of 2.1mm from the stock ones and that would make them drag because they'd sit too far away from the lifter.

Anyone out there having success with their aftermarket clutch parts, more specifically, a mix of EBC friction (fiber) discs with Barnett clutch (metal) plates? These are the two brands I'm hoping will be the winning combination. But then I'll have the double-plate to contend with also. Is there notable success with double-stacking Barnett metal plates to make up for the stock/riveted plate? Any pointers out there?

[goldarrow]

I've alway bought EBC and put on old metal plates, never an issue

[minimo]

Hmmm. Damn. Maybe I bought the wrong EBC discs? I threw away the box so I don't know.
There's a "1" stamped on one of the teeth on the disc...

[minimo]

While I'm waiting for the Barnett metal plates, and because I don't have anything better to do, I went scouring around for a shim washer to test out enwri's suggestion of backing the clutch center with one.
I found a 1" ID aluminum washer at an amazing store in Burbank, Luky's Hardware.

0.8mm thick was as thin as I could find at this store, but I have a feeling I wasn't looking hard enough; go to this store and you'll find things you never knew you were looking for! Anyway, I placed the washer on top of the collar preceding the clutch pressure plate and clutch center assembly, like this:

The whole assembly slipped on just fine and there was a slight wobble as it teetered on the shim washer yet that all went away once the lifter plate and springs and bolts got all torqued down. The shim allowed for just enough clearance of the groove for the circlip, so I couldn't use the thin 0.10mm washers (x2) preceding the circlip.
A couple bolts fastened the cover back on and a slow lift of the lever arm and it was like a miracle - le resistance! The lifter rod was seating! I adjusted the cables and I'm pretty convinced this will do the trick...
HOWEVER, the link that Bootsey referred to above follows flatlander and his saga of using a similar mod for his '76 550F. He used a 1.00mm "thrust washer" which would suggest that there was some concavity with that shim, whereas the washer I'm using is thinner and completely flat. Regardless, scroll down and he posts an image of the results of the mod and it appears that the outer plate and topmost fiber clutch plate edges had made some contact with part of the lever... Quite a nasty sight. Cringeworthy and makes me want to stop and just wait for the metal Barnett discs to arrive.

[enwri]

 When I mentioned the shim, I was sort of asking if you might have accidentally left any parts out and had a spare bit leftover at the end.
I should be clearer, sorry, also I'm just not familiar enough with the 550s to help really, just knew those bolts cant be left loose, and could forsee bad things happening.
Thought I should say something, probably wouldn't have otherwise.

The difference in clutch pack thickness could have moved the clutch throwout away from the adjuster by 2.1mm.
Maybe that exceeded the adjustment limit (not being able to reach the clutch) to adjust it. I don't know.

Also the shim, where you have it now, does it do anything towards moving the clutch pack out? (towards the adjuster) if it wasn't there before on the parts diagram, it probably shouldn't stay there. Maybe that gap has a set clearance to be left in it, you'll have to look it up.
I'm sure you can get all the manuals and parts list from here on this site if you don't trust yours.
Something I read is that 500s and 550s have the clutch mechanisms on different sides or something like that, maybe the manual is describing the other one and not yours.
If that aluminium shim gets loaded up while spinning it will probably just squash out and get tangled up somewhere else, they're usually steel.

  The "I'll have a go at it" attitude and making do with what you have is familiar territory, I've figuratively chewed up and spat out enough of my own aluminium shims to be able to recognize and sway others away from the same mistakes..
Get the diagrams, it will make it easier to see how it goes together and and works.
I can't help with this but I'll be back to see what it was.

[enwri]

That thread with the chewed up clutch, I had seen that one before.
My money was on the adjuster screw at the bottom caught up in the lever,
where he is pointing with the pencil, it's not through the hole and being held out too far.
I've never seen one in person so cant tell if it should go through or not, or if it's even a screw through a cylinder, (like the rear brake adjuster).
couldn't find an exploded view of it.

[minimo]

I appreciate you chiming back here to clarify, enwri. I've studied the parts diagrams for the clutch assembly long enough to know that the aluminum washer really does not belong there. It was more my attitude of "there's gotta be another way to go about this" and frustration that leads me to try these foolish things.
The aluminum shim, where it is now did indeed move the clutch pack out toward the adjuster, enough to do away with the 0.1mm washers and allowing the circlip to barely catch in the groove of the shaft. The circlip did not make that usual "click" sound though so I fear that it's actually not properly on there. I suppose that while I have the assembly on the way that it is, I can try the kickstart a few times to hear/see if there's any contacts or weirdness going on, but I won't.

A Honda bike mechanic I spoke with the other day basically said, "Those aftermarket clutch parts, like, what are the ones, Barnett? Those are the worst!" And when I told him I have EBC, he said, "Those are #$%* too! If you're gonna use aftermarket parts, you're prolly better off sticking with using ALL aftermarket parts - don't mix and match!"

Hondaman has said in another thread:

I was going to suggest: measure the thickness of the plates. Reason: I haven't found any EBC plates yet that were the correct thickness. Most are too thin. This means you can possibly add an extra steel plate (this works on the 750 to some extent) to make the whole pack thick enough again.

The issue we are seeing is: the steel and fiber plates in the market are getting mixed up with some more modern ones. These newer ones are typically the same thickness as worn-out OEM ones in our bikes. So, if you install a whole stack of them into the clutch, the total height is too low. Then, the lifters cannot lift them far enough apart to stop the drag. Even if you can finesse the lifter to a point where it sorta works, after the plates wear in a bit you can't anymore. With the 750, I get this same e-mail about every 2 months from someone!

On the bikes with the extra-thick first steel plate in the back: you cna install a steel one on top of that, then the new plates. You'll need an extra steel one for this.

If you have the old plates: stack them all up together with a brick on top and let them sit a couple of hours. Then carefully measure the height. Repeat with the new plates. You may well find the new ones are about 0.5mm to 1.0mm thinner stack. That makes 'em drag because they sit too far away from the lifter.

I'll be pulling that aluminum washer out today. Thanks again for the warning, enwri. I'm expecting the Barnett metal plates to arrive tomorrow so I'll be slapping those in and I'll be reporting back.

[minimo]

Damnit, the Barnett metal plates didn't work in combination with my EBC friction discs. I'm all out of ideas before I try something I'll probably regret.

The Barnett plates are indeed thicker than stock:

Stock Honda metal plate: 1.60mm

Barnett (401-35-078002): ~1.98mm

Definitely thicker but just not enough to raise the assembly of discs/plates for the lifter rod to actuate the lever. Grrr.

The stock Honda Clutch B plate (the doubled one that's riveted together) is actually thicker (4.70mm) than two Barnett metal plates sandwiched together (4.00mm) yet still not enough to lift the rod into the lever.

I've read discussions on swapping out the double metal plate for an added friction disc + metal plate (making it 8 friction discs and 7 steel plates?). I wish I'd kept my old stock friction plates to compare the stack heights between stock and aftermarket. That'd been a more systematic approach rather than measuring individual friction discs and plates.

I'm stuck on what to do.

I probably should have just gone with OEM Honda friction discs from the beginning since there's been success reported across the board on those.

Anyone else out there feel my pain? Here's the parts breakout that's now burned into my brain.

[enwri]

If that's the diagram of your clutch, wont taking plates out move the lifter plate/No.9  towards the adjuster?

[minimo]

It is the diagram of my clutch and I've been going nuts trying to replicate it exactly the way it shows. I've been going by the books this whole time and now you're telling me that I can pull out some plates? That's absurd; but I like it.

Can anyone else concur with pulling out plates?