Author Topic: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details  (Read 8333 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2012, 06:37:09 AM »
Had just enough time last night to remove the carbs and figure out a way to remove an emulsion tube.  Popped one out fairly easily with a standard Bic pen.  Tapped the butt end against the top of the tube through the slide throat and then flipped the ink insert/tube over to drive it the rest of the way through.  The ballpoint tip made for a decent enough surface for the small hammer.  Hoping to remove the rest of the tubes tonight and also check out the manifold gaskets.


Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2012, 08:37:44 AM »
Well, it's as good a time as any to have a bike disassembled.  Our first significant snowfall of the season.  Beautiful scenery.


Offline iron_worker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,081
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2012, 09:08:03 AM »
Lucky, you are the first one to mention pods....?

Pretty sure he stated he has a stock airbox.

IW

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2012, 09:13:46 AM »
Lucky, you are the first one to mention pods....?

Pretty sure he stated he has a stock airbox.

IW
Affirmative, stock box and OEM filter.

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2012, 07:25:34 PM »
I've mentioned in a few other threads that besides my normal shirt and tie job I also do all of the carb cleaning work for a local mc shop that subs it out to me. From what I have seen  (and corrected) countless  times, people will endlessly chase their tail looking for mysterious carb problems when in fact it is, more often than not, a simple case of improperly cleaned carbs. 

I've cured dozens of no start, poor idling, backfiring, etc  issues using a high-quality, American -made ultrasonic cleaner along with the proper chemicals. The shop keeps sending me all of their carb work because my nearly $1,000 cleaner and $75 per gallon carb cleaning chemical flat out works like nothing else. This week alone, I cured various running issues on a 650 Savage, a 1970 Honda Scrambler, 3 Chinese scooters, and a Generac home generator.

Until you know for an absolute, 100%  certainty that your carbs are indeed meticulously clean and thus allowing you to eliminate  this as the cause of your fueling issue, you may just end up spending a lot of time and money chasing dead ends. Nothing, absolutely nothing, can clean all of the carb circuits (especially the  tiny idle and low speed circuits) like a quality ultrasonic cleaner (and not a $59 Harbor freight jewelry cleaner) and dedicated, cleaning chemicals specifically formulated for carbs. A $25 one gallon dip tank from PepBoys or a can of spray carb cleaner are not going to get the job done. Spending the money upfront for this service is money well spent.

If you haven't sorted out the issues, try to find a local vintage car/mc shop that offers this service. If you do, ask to see the sonic cleaner so you can verify it's not a Harbor freight (or similar) toy; a lot of people offer this service but in my experience, either out of ignorance or malfeasance, they purchase cheap, low-end cleaners and use basic cleaning supplies such as Simple Green. The real shellac-dissolving chemicals cost much more than Simple Green for a reason... Good luck.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:34:00 PM by Mainerider »

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2012, 09:48:32 PM »
Wow, thanks Mainerider. Sounds like you really have a legitimate setup!

Hopefully my extra work tonight gets me closer to the clean setup I need. Cleaned up the OEM hardware and got the rack back together.  The emulsion tubes were definitely cruddy, as were the passages in which they reside.

Before


After

Offline Mainerider

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 164
  • '04 VFR 800, '96 VFR750, 2001 SV650
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2012, 04:32:28 AM »
They do look much better.  Getting at the complete circuit(s) is the true challenge, though; the emulsion tubes, jets, jet holders, etc. are the easily-accessed components. Making sure that the internal passageways are completely clean is the key; even being able to blow air through only proves that a passageway isn't completely clogged; it may still be restricted through residue buildup, and when a passageway is as small as these are it takes only a small restriction to add up to a large percentage loss of fuel flow. That is where the ultrasonic process proves it's worth; it reaches where you can't visually or physically reach.

Hopefully, yours are clean enough now; I know dealing with carbs can be quite frustrating...


Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2012, 06:29:57 AM »
As long as we are discussing small passageways and such, what is the function of the small brass ball embedded in the carb body?  I did not take a picture last night but I think it was near the air screw passageway.  Perhaps the actual funtion of that item lies on the non-visible side? 

Offline iron_worker

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,081
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2012, 07:27:06 AM »
I'm taking a guess at this but I believe the brass balls were pressed into passage ways to close them off. Because of the way casting works there would have to be small pieces of sand core or a steel rod within the mold to form the shape of the passageway. Since it would be fairly difficult if not impossible to support the rod if it were simply hanging in the middle of the void the sand core/rod was extended out so that it could be supported by the outside edge of the mold. Since they only wanted the passageway to be internal it was then plugged off using pressed in brass balls.

It was either that or perhaps the passages were drilled after the casting process and to have access to make internal passageways they must drill through holes.

I'm sure that's confusing as hell to read ... but that's my best guess.

IW

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2012, 07:50:40 AM »
I'm taking a guess at this but I believe the brass balls were pressed into passage ways to close them off....

That makes sense, thanks.  They did not appear to be functional (that is to say moving/removable items) so I wanted to make sure I hadn't overlooked something in the cleaning process.  Thanks for your $.02.

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2012, 08:03:07 AM »
Aftermarket pilot jets often have smaller cross drilling which leads to a richer mixture at /just off idle.
Use the originals if different
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2012, 06:25:11 PM »
Did you replace the parts labeled #38 in this pic? If you didn't, you missed a notorious source of vacuum leaks on the 500/550

Pulled the intakes tonight. Rings look rough, as suspected. Will try to source a new set over next couple days.

Of course making all of these changes is far from scientific because I won't necessarily be able to pinpoint the main culprit. However, I am not willing to fix just one thing at a time, reassemble, test and repeat. Something tells me that if I get her humming I'm not really going to care!


Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2012, 04:38:05 AM »
 I'm willing to bet that it was the aftermarket slow jets. They caused me MUCH headache until I stumbled across some genuine Keihin jets. Instantly cured my lean/hanging idle condition.


 Stock Keihin on the left, two aftermarkets on the right.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2012, 07:46:44 AM »
Told ya so  ;)
Good pic, easy to see the difference in hole size  8)
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline kslrr

  • There is always a Blaster when there is a
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,542
  • Raising her up right!
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2012, 10:17:28 AM »
Just goes to show how the original engineers of these carbs knew what they were doing.  The designers of after market stuff just figure that if the threads correct and there are holes, it's good.  Even the length of the jet maters.  The original jet is submerged deeper into the fuel in the bowl.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2012, 12:09:34 PM »
Just goes to show how the original engineers of these carbs knew what they were doing.  The designers of after market stuff just figure that if the threads correct and there are holes, it's good.  Even the length of the jet maters.  The original jet is submerged deeper into the fuel in the bowl.

Could be the aftermarket parts were made by machinists/mechanics rather than actually engineered for working function in a specific model carb.  But, just look at how much brass they saved!  (Good picture post, Scott)
I suppose every little bit of weight reduction "helps".

Bwahahahahahahahahaha...
hahahahahahahahahahahha...
hahahahahahahahahahahha...
hahahahahahahahahahahha...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2012, 12:52:41 PM »
I will disassemble one of the bowls tonight to compare and take a picture of the original and Keyster jet.  I know it's not as drastic as Scott's but perhaps it will help someone in my situation down the line.


Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2012, 08:43:58 PM »
Well, good news and bad news. 

The good - the Keihin jet and the Keyster jets are the same length and have same hole pattern.  This was based on a naked eye comparison only so I realize they could vary enough to make a difference.  Nevertheless, any subtle differences are certainly not obvious like those in Scott S's pic above.

Now the bad.  Well, actually it's GOOD, too, because it likely explains some of my troubles.  I have a shiny US quarter for any of my SOHC friends who can spot the problem amongst the four Keyster jets...   :o


Offline swan

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 249
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2012, 09:51:55 PM »
38, 38, 38, 35... One of these things is not like the others.....
1975 CB400 F cafes, 1974 CB750 K4 Cafe, 1966/1976 Triumph/ Norton Triton Cafe and 1962 DBD34 BSA Gold Star Clubman.

CB750 build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=52551.0

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2012, 10:12:12 PM »
Congrats, swan. I'll send the quarter ASAP upon receipt of your SASE. Remember those days?

I can understand how a tiny stamped "5" could get confused for an "8" in a dim sorting area.  I will probably contact the vendor to see if I can swap so at least I have a complete spare set.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 10:14:01 PM by Jay D. »

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2012, 12:32:28 PM »
Picked up some generic o-rings from Napa.  Found a size (marked F22) that should do the trick.  Inner diameter is same as original and the ring rises above the lip far enough that is should make a good seal.  At $.50 a pop it's worth a try.





Offline Scott S

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,232
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2012, 12:37:12 PM »
 Why not use the Keihin jets?
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2012, 12:39:40 PM »
Why not use the Keihin jets?
I intend to use the Keihin jets.  Since I paid for the Keysters I want to have them in my stock pile but they should at least match.


Offline Jay D.

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2012, 02:20:13 PM »
Fired her up today and was about to scream/cry as tach needle bounced around until I realized I had not replaced the vacuum screws.  :P  After that it was easy to get things settled down again.  Bench sync got me close but also did full vacuum sync to really get things smoothed out.

Enjoyed a quick blast around the neighborhood. Have to keep it local because its not tagged yet and tires are sketchy. Still felt great to be a little bit closer to completion.

Thanks to all who pitched in to help.  Hopefully this thread will help someone else down the line.

Thanks!


« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 04:06:06 PM by Jay D. »

Offline Clinto

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 140
Re: 550K0 Tuning Frustrations - warning: lots of details
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2012, 02:29:37 PM »
congrats on the carb rebuild, some great information and tips in this thread. thanks for all the documentation everybody, it really helps
77 CB550F2