Author Topic: CB400 - 466 questions  (Read 8645 times)

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Offline -CB-Jamie-

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CB400 - 466 questions
« on: November 29, 2012, 01:33:09 PM »
So I'm planning on putting a 466 kit in my cb400 and I have a few quick questions. I've never done any kind of engine work before and I'm looking for as much help and advice as possible. Currently the engine has about 30,000 miles on it and one of the main reasons I want to do this is the bike is a bit hard to start and a very smokey until it warms up, so if the rings need to be done I might as well just go for the big bore kit.

I'm wondering if there is anything that should definitely be replaced/looked at as I have the top end tore down?
I don't want to split the cases so that leaves the cam chain tensioner out of the equation but should I still replace the cam chain with a split link type one?
Any oil seals/valves or anything that have to be replaced?
How do I measure/check valve guides and seals for wear once I have it apart?
Any ideas if I'll have to re-jet afterwards? (Standard intake and exhaust)

Thanks
Jamie
72 CB350/4
76 CB400/4 CB400f "Project Resurrection"
77 CB550/4 1977 CB550 Yet Another Cafe
77 cb200
09 cbf600

Offline -CB-Jamie-

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CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 04:34:48 AM »
Anybody??
72 CB350/4
76 CB400/4 CB400f "Project Resurrection"
77 CB550/4 1977 CB550 Yet Another Cafe
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Offline camelman

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 06:36:09 AM »
Currently the engine has about 30,000 miles on it and one of the main reasons I want to do this is the bike is a bit hard to start and a very smokey until it warms up, so if the rings need to be done I might as well just go for the big bore kit.

I'm wondering if there is anything that should definitely be replaced/looked at as I have the top end tore down?
I don't want to split the cases so that leaves the cam chain tensioner out of the equation but should I still replace the cam chain with a split link type one?
Any oil seals/valves or anything that have to be replaced?
How do I measure/check valve guides and seals for wear once I have it apart?
Any ideas if I'll have to re-jet afterwards? (Standard intake and exhaust)

I am a huge fan of the 466 kit.  It completely transforms the engine on these bikes.  That being said, your smoking problem might not be ring related.  It could be from hardened valve seals, worn out valves/guides or a leaking head gasket.  You should really start diagnostics with the engine as it is before getting into repairs.  I recommend starting with a compression test and possibly a leak down test.  I believe the procedures are written up in the FAQ.  The most typical reasons for burning oil is from the head gasket or valve guide seals leaking.  Those issue can be fixed for the cost of a new gasket kit.

You can check to see if the valve guide tensioner is working correctly by pulling the valve cover off, loosening the lock screw on the front of the engine for the tensioner and pressing down on the rear most tensioner.  If it feels spring and moves easily, then the horseshoe is fine.

I pulled a cam chain off that had 40,000 miles on it and it had no noticeable stretch when compared to a brand new DID cam chain.  That was for a 350F, but it is identical to the 400F setup.  That won't always be the case, especially if your chain has been allowed to come loose, but I'm not sure how to check chain stretch with the chain in situ.  Your chain guides might be worn though.  Before shelling out the big bucks for new chain tensioners, I'd recommend finding someone with some spares.  I definitely have spares in near perfect condition (low cost), as well as brand new items from DSS.  I'd sell you either, but the DSS repro units are costly.  $110 for the set I think. 

Regarding wear checks, you should get a manual and start from there.  The leakdown test will give you a good idea if your valves are leaking, but valve wear is more difficult to measure without actually disassembling the head.

You won't need to rejet afterwards if the bike is stock.  Even with the big bore kit and stock everything else, you might stick with the same jets, or possibly decrease your mains (higher pressure drop due to higher flow rate resulting from the big bore kit will create a higher fuel flow rate through the carb circuits, which may result in a rich mixture).  Stock mains are 78 or 80.  If you go down, then go to 75/78 respective of which stock jets you have.  I wouldn't bother with that until you have the bike running though.  As a reference, a 466 kitted bike with bored out carbs and stock intake/exhaust will need to raise the main jets from 78 to 80 (or similar), to get the fueling right.  The bored out carbs will offset the higher pressure drop from the big bore kit, which is why I think you'd be just about right with the stock jetting.

If you pull the engine apart, then pull the jugs off too and replace the ring gaskets around the cylinders as well as the cylinder base gasket.

If you decide to bore out the engine, the make sure you have a machinist who can handle the bores on these blocks.  I know of one shop in Petaluma, CA that can do it, but I don't know any other shops in my area that can.  I'm sure others can chime in on other shops that can bore your cylinders.

Regards,
Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline -CB-Jamie-

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 07:22:56 AM »
Thanks Camelman for a very comprehensive reply  ;)

OK so I have actually decided to go ahead with the big bore anyway just for that little extra ooomphh and being a very impatient person I have already stripped down the top end. After reading your reply I shoulda waited and done a leak down test but sure unfortunately it's too late now ::)

I did do a compression test on this engine before though and got results of about 95psi give or take a few psi across all 4 cylinders which is a bit low

First off anyway the head gasket looks fine so I don't think that was a problem although I'm not 100% sure what I'm looking for.
The cam chain did seem to have a bit of play up and down on the sprocket before I released it so I might replace this alright but the tensioner did seem to be fine before I disassembled so I might leave well enough alone...

Is it too late now to tell whether there is wear on the valve guides?
Should I just replace the valve seals anyway as they are pretty cheap?
Do the oil jets in the head have to b replaced?

I also have a complete second engine which is disassembled so I have no problem with spares.

Again thanks for the reply
72 CB350/4
76 CB400/4 CB400f "Project Resurrection"
77 CB550/4 1977 CB550 Yet Another Cafe
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Offline crazypj

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 07:46:11 AM »
Replace valve guide seals, they will be hardened even if not worn
They are more of a 'controlled leak' rather than a total seal
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Offline Kemp

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 08:33:01 AM »
Lap the valves also, you'll need to clean off all the carbon build up with a wire wheel first. At the same time you can check valve guide wear.

Offline camelman

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 09:14:27 AM »
What kind of compression tester were you using?  The long hose on most compression tester effectively decreases the measured compression ratio resulting in lower than expected compression readings. Not a big deal for large car cylinders, but not as accurate as we need. However, it sounds like your compression is fairly even, which is most important. An oil leak at the head gasket would show as oil residue on the gasket. I use coppercoat on my head gaskets to keep oil leaks at bay.

Just plan on replacing all your rubber and gasket parts on the engine. No hard parts unless you can tell they are worn.

If you decide you want to replace that cam chain, then let me know. I have a spare DID chain that i don't need. It would require splitting the cases though.  Master link chains are available too if you don't want to split your cases.

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline -CB-Jamie-

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 05:15:50 AM »
Thanks for the offer on the camchain camelman but I really don't want to have to go into splitting the cases if I can avoid it, I will probably go with a master link type camchain alright though for the sake of it now as I do have the head off. The postage to Ireland as well would probably make it not worth my while.

I received my pistons anyway today and have found a reputable engine overhaul shop close to me anyway who can carry out the rebore no problem but what they are looking for is the running clearance, the gap between the piston and the bore. I believe I read in a previous thread that you were involved in camelman that it should be in the range of 0.0012" - 0.0016" is this correct? I have looked in the workshop manual I have and I can't seem to find this figure in it. I do need this figure before the machine shop can proceed with the rebore.

I took some pics there and was just wondering if ye could have a look and see is there's anything that looks obviously wrong or worn. I am a little worried about the scoring marks from where the camshaft runs in the head. I threw in a pic of the old pistons and bore as well.

Thanks



















« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 08:39:05 AM by -CB-Jamie- »
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Offline crazypj

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 04:00:18 PM »
Clearance depends on pistons, cast or forged? (at the price I would say cast?)
I use 0.0016"~0.0017" with cast pistons.
Your liable to be producing a bit more heat so use slightly more clearance.
BTW, check spec for stock bore and stock piston tolerances, little bit of math and you have max and min stock clearance
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Offline camelman

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 11:57:51 PM »
I can't comment on the ring gap or bore diameter, but you might ask TTR400. Nothing looks amiss in the pics with the possible exception of the outer bearing journal on the valve cover opposite the tach drive. Are those scratches or just a polish mark?

I totally missed the fact that you live in Ireland. I'm usually browsing this site on my phone and it cuts off the avatar section when I zoom in on the text. Plus, considering that you write with an American accent, I just assumed you live in the States. ;) DSS is nearby you for spares. You'd be best off ordering from them.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline crazypj

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 09:53:17 AM »
I just noticed one of the valve springs is on upside down #3 exhaust
That bore is pretty F'd up, guess motor was locked up and someone used release oil to free it
 Nothing wrong with cam bearings, they were probably overtightened last time head was off, plus, looks like it was run with dirty oil
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 09:56:37 AM by crazypj »
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Offline phil71

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 03:08:37 PM »
This thread baffles me.. if you've got it apart, and are going the distance with this big bore kit, why on earth wouldn't you just do it right and rebuild the head?

Offline -CB-Jamie-

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2012, 06:27:11 AM »
Thanks lads well I have had the barrels bored out now and they look perfect, I found the stock gap in the workshop manual by deducting the piston skirt from the cylinder I.D. and this came to the 0.03mm - 0.04mm which is what other people like jessezm used for his big bore kit. I must make up a shopping list for david silvers now for gaskets and seals and order them and I should be on the right track then.

That's a good spot crazypj on that valve spring, I didn't even realise there was a top and bottom to them, thanks.

phil71 like I said I've never done any engine work before which is why I started this thread, what do you mean by rebuild the head? Replace valve guides and valves? I do plan to replace the valve stem seals anyway and lap the valves but I thought you could get away without replacing the guides and valves if I inspected them and they were not worn??

That's cool camelman I will order from david silvers alright, unfortunately their aftermarket cam chain which is D.I.D. is out of stock and I'm not sure if you can split the genuine chain and use a master link in it.

I'll continue to post my progress here...
Jamie
72 CB350/4
76 CB400/4 CB400f "Project Resurrection"
77 CB550/4 1977 CB550 Yet Another Cafe
77 cb200
09 cbf600

Offline phil71

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2012, 06:53:47 AM »
Oh, well.. if the guides are within spec, then you're golden! It read as though you were just going to toss the head back on as-is with an old head gasket as long as nothing looked broken.

Offline camelman

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 03:59:40 PM »
BTW, we are having a discussion on gaskets for a 350f on this forum right now.  I really recommend using something like coppercoat to make sure the head gasket doesn't leak.  Replace all of the gaskets and rubber parts from the base of the cylinders (there are actually rubber rings that slip onto the cylinders from the bottom) all the way to the topmost gaskets.  It is worth it doing it right so you won't get oil leaks.  Clean off the gasket surfaces well too.  I've used 2000 grit sandpaper in the past on a flat wooden block to help clean things up if necessary.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline -CB-Jamie-

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2012, 10:35:09 AM »
Cool I'll have a look at that discussion as well camelman thanks... will look into getting some copper coat as well for reassembly...

I was just wondering if you can split the genuine cam chain and use a soft link with it or does it have to be an aftermarket chain and soft link to go with it?? David Silver doesn't have the aftermarket chain in stock at the moment but does have the genuine chain in stock and the soft links.

Took the rest of the head apart today and measured all the valve stems and valve springs and they seem to be well within spec according to the manual so I'm very happy with that. What I don't know how to do is to measure/check the valve guides, it says in the manual to check the clearance between the valve stem and the guide but I don't know how to do this, do I need a special very narrow feeler gauge or is there some other way to do this??

Thanks

72 CB350/4
76 CB400/4 CB400f "Project Resurrection"
77 CB550/4 1977 CB550 Yet Another Cafe
77 cb200
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Offline swan

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 09:36:40 AM »
Where did you buy your 466 kit?
1975 CB400 F cafes, 1974 CB750 K4 Cafe, 1966/1976 Triumph/ Norton Triton Cafe and 1962 DBD34 BSA Gold Star Clubman.

CB750 build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=52551.0

Offline -CB-Jamie-

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 02:18:43 PM »
72 CB350/4
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77 CB550/4 1977 CB550 Yet Another Cafe
77 cb200
09 cbf600

Offline crazypj

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 03:08:15 PM »
I've never had a problem using soft link in stock or aftermarket chains (d.I.D., Izumli or EK 'race')
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Offline Cundalini

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 03:26:59 PM »
I had a Yoshimura 460cc racing kit on my 400 four when I bought it in 1986. Bored out ,larger pistons ,racing camshaft ,large valves.Needles in Carbs raised to highest notch, bellmouths air in takes.  Didn`t have the YOSHI exhaust though as intended. Had a PIPER exhaust fitted  on it .Engine ran very hot all the time esp. in the summer.Always intended to fit an oil cooler but never got around to it! Didn`t half fly though in my younger days when I was a lot lighter! Long story short .. Hassle of insurance company when I (eventually ) told them bike was modified ,premiums raised etc. lack of Yoshi 460cc head gaskets. Got fed up converted back to 400cc using top end purchased from scrapyard. (Yoshi 460 barrels pistons,cylinder head and barrels and racing cam still sit in garage!) Few months after I converted back to standard 400cc I  got talking to someone at a show.Told him what I had done and why .He replied " Oh I make head gaskets out of copper. I could have made you one using the old Yoshi 460 one as a template!"
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 03:28:45 PM by Cundalini »
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Offline crazypj

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Re: CB400 - 466 questions
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2012, 10:01:14 AM »
I had to cut my own copper gaskets for 550 to 590 'conversion' (local boilermaker supplied 'off cut' of 1/16" copper sheet  ;))
Still in the bike 33~34 yrs later  8)
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'