Author Topic: Fuel petcock physics.  (Read 10648 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Fuel petcock physics.
« on: July 10, 2006, 08:55:41 PM »
Got a picture for you, and the explanation about "why 2 cylinders run lean on reserve" on the CB750. Those of you who have manuals for the K0-K3 will find the phrase "...run at reduced speed..." while on reserve tank. And, one of my friends (with a K0) actually did damage an exhaust valve on the "lean side" when running low in Arizona one fine summer day, so Honda wasn't kidding.

You'll notice there is a tube sticking out of the petcock: this is "MAIN feed" from the tank, for the carbs. The hydrostatic head in this pipe amounts to AT LEAST [2.625" x .57 oz/inch] = 1.496 oz-inches (about 1.5 ounces) of pressure feed into the petcock body, by virtue of its 2.625" height and gasoline's specific density. Any fuel that splashes into the full pipe will push at this force into the petcock valving. The MAIN inlet is the one on the right in the picture, which angles upward to meet the bottom of the also-angled pipe. This angling reduces the bends required for the fuel path, which improves flow.

When reserve tank is used, the fuel flows into the inlet on the left side, at a 90 degree angle from the top of the valve (at the bottom edge of the tank, more or less). The hole on the bottom goes to the dual spigots on the back of the petcock. The hydrostatic head is always less on RESERVE than what is found in the MAIN pipe. The inlet is a 90 degree bend, less efficient than the lesser bends in the MAIN circuit. This, plus the lesser head, reduces the 1.5 ounces to something less. When down to the top of the petcock, near end-of-fuel, the pressure is only about .12 ounces.

Now, there are 2 90-degree bends in the back of the petcock for the "lean" carb side and 1 for the other carb side. Each bend fights the flow of fuel just a little bit. To make things more difficult (for the engineers), the hoses to the carbs are different lengths. One of them, to the far side of the bike, actually goes down, then up, then down again before reaching the bowls. This causes a buble of air to always be present in that hose, at the high point. This bubble shifts back & forth with bike movement, pumping against the 3 90-degree bends in the back of the petcock.

The original setup on these bikes was with the 3-4 (short) carb hose on the front spigot of the petcock. This was intended to try to balance the flow somewhat in low-head RESERVE situations. But, the moving bubble in the longer hose disrupts the cross-flow in the back of the petcock by pushing back into the front of the petcock and siphoning some of the fuel from the other spigot when it does. To make matters worse, mechanics often reversed the hoses because it was easier to reassemble them the other way, or because they just didn't know better. This was the case on my friend's K0.

If you understand fluid dynamics, this makes perfect sense. I am not sure how to make this simpler, except to say you might want to get a cold one, hold up a petcock and hoses (or go look at the bike) and think in terms of sloshing water and it's effects in those tiny pipes.

There is one thing that will help: there are 2 little "balance tubes" between the 2 pairs of carbs. These tee together into a pair of small hoses, usually exiting between the 2-3 carbs and going up somewhere (they get moved all over). If you have a stock airbox, drill 2 holes in the front of it, away from the side where the air inlet slot is, and stick the ends of these hoses into the airbox. This creates a slight suction that helps pull the fuel down into the bowls. It also slightly causes improved richness at hi RPM on extended runs (like really fast riding), with attendant extra HP.

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Offline jaknight

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2006, 09:18:10 PM »
Fascinating post, HondaMan!

     In a round about way, it reminds me of some of the technology that different countries use in the fabrication of aircraft tubing assemblies.

     In aircraft, all tube bends are based on the "bend, rotate, orientate, bend" method.  Straight planes (as in geometry), an abrupt change from one to another.

     While working on some foreign (no names here) military aircraft in a classified government program (hush-hush, hish-hish),  I learned that at least one foreign government had developed a method of making tubing in a corkscrew effect while producing bent tubing without the sudden, abrupt turns at bends.

     This had a very beneficial effect regarding reliability, efficiency, and significantly extended the functional life cycle of the tubes by virtue of the corkscrew design being much more resistant to damage from vibrations/pulse cycles and earth's gravity "pulls" within the aircraft.  Whatever package the tubes were delivering (gas, liquid), its arrival and integrity was enhanced by resistance to outside forces.

     I never saw or heard of any American tube machines capable of producing a corkscrew type of tube for aircraft use.  We suffered somewhat for it.

     ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 09:44:34 PM by jaknight »
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2006, 02:10:37 AM »
Mark,

Thanks, another very detailed explanation. I'm going to head out later and check which of my carbs is fed from which petcock outlet and, oh yeah, stay off reserve.  ;)
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Offline Dunstall_74

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2006, 02:36:56 AM »
Good to know.  I have the same style petcock on my dunstall tank and just went on reserve yesterday.  Had no idea it might be bad to throttle through the gears while on res.

 I do have issues though. My petcock is leaking in the closed position and I'm not sure if it might have anything to do with the sealing of the mounting screws that attatch the petcock to the tank, or if it's worn out internals of the petcock..  Also, the tube that sticks up that provides the proper head for feeding all four carbs has a 1-2" hairline crack in it.  I have the dunstall tank fitted to my 1974 cb750k, so I only need one feed spigot; so I tapped out the spigot that I don't use with 7mm X 1.00 pitch, and threw a bolt in there to plug it up.  No runability issues, scoots down the road just fine.  Really sucks waking up with my garage wreaking of gas. The petcock doesn't seat all the way, and neither does my #4 carb float needle.  I've got a new set of float needles and seats on the way, but that'll only take care of half of my problem.  I think in the meantime I'm going to install an in line shut-off valve for the fuel so I don't blow my garage up, and burn down my house.   
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Offline kghost

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2006, 10:24:53 AM »
Would seem to me.....

And bear in mind my fluid mechanics classes were long ago.....

That when you are about to run out of fuel on the Main setting..........

You may generate a lean condition based on head pressure reduction as well.

Now I agree that bends are bad. And a lean condition could result as reserve draws down decreasing head pressure.

Keep in mind air bubbles in the fuel line will affect flow on both reserve and main.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2006, 01:18:13 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of your explanation, Hondaman.

The head pressure present at the fuel petcock outlet is a function of the total fuel depth in the tank.  An argument can be made that the head pressure at the top of the stand pipe is less than that at the bottom of the tank where the reserve feed is, as there is less fuel stacked in a column above the entrance orifice.  However, both the reserve orifice and the main orifice in the petcock have the same exit hole diameter and cross sectional area, and it exists at the same depth in the fuel tank.  They will have the same head pressure as they have identical columns of fuel above them being pulled by gravity.  Things change, of course, when the fuel level drops to the stand pipe tip.

Hydrostatic pressure increases with the depth of fluid as the total weight of the fluid above that point exerts its gravimetric force.  It's why submarines have a "crush depth".  They will crush at the same depth in large oceans as well as small ones.

When the fuel level falls to stand pipe depth, the head pressure falls as the tube empties.  Then the engine runs lean when the supply can't meet the demand.  Switching to reserve immediately restores a head pressure equivalent of the remaining fuel level in the tank.  Longer lines become more difficult to fill as the head pressure reduces, however.  This may lead to a reduced level of fuel in the carb bowls farthest from the source of supply, assuming other fuel line impediments do not exist.  When the float bowls run low, the slow jet starts sucking air well below the lower main and the cylinder(s) goes lean, and hot.  This can happen as fuel levels approach the standpipe tip level if there is a minimum of sloshing in the tank (steady speed cruise on a smooth road for example).

I agree that 90 degree bends can certainly impede flow at high fluid velocities.  But, does the SOHC4 actually have high velocity fuel in the lines?  Let's say a 750 gets 25 MPG at 50 MPH.  That's a 2 gal per hour rate, through a 4.1 mm, (0.162 inch or a little larger than 5/32) orifice in the petcock. Or, 1/2 cup in 0.875 minutes, if I've done the math and conversions correctly.

The fuel line pressure is the result of a column of fuel 4.1mm or 0.162 in diameter and whatever the depth of the fuel in the tank., with a volume of 2GPH.

These seem to be pretty low velocities and it's very hard to imagine such bends would have much of an impact on flow rates.

The wind on your face doesn't exert much pressure during deflection at 10 MPH.  However, at 70 or 80, diverting air around your face is more dramatic.

The pressure and flow rate in the SOHC4 fuel supply is very small.  Note the very small metal plungers in the float valves. These have very weak springs.  Yet, the very weak spring these have is more than enough to hold back the fuel pressure exerted by even a full tank of fuel.

Personally, I feel that leaning on reserve or main setting is more a function of the slow jet starving before the main at cruise as the float bowl fuel level drops..  I agree that a carb farthest from the fuel petcock may starve before others.  But, I don't see any physics that support the petcock itself from contributing to that starvation.

What is not in your picture is a view of the outlet spigots.  This amounts to a horizontal tube supplied from one end with two downward outlet tubes along it's length. The fuel flows from the supply inlet toward the end and falls into the first outlet tube it encounters   Think of how a small ball bearing would travel in this arrangement.  When the first tube is filled, flow then continues on to the next outlet.  During periods of fuel supply starvation, the first tube is always the one supplied first, and the second tube can easily be more starved than the first one.  It is a matter of gravity in a gravity feed system.  One carburetor supply tube will always go dry before the other with this arrangement.  Personally, I'd like to see the longer fuel line at the far end of the petcock log.  The reasoning is that longer lines store more fuel than shorter one.  And there is a better chance that ALL carbs will starve together to give a drastic indication rather than just two cylinders behaving slightly different during idle jet starvation.

Quote
There is one thing that will help: there are 2 little "balance tubes" between the 2 pairs of carbs. These tee together into a pair of small hoses, usually exiting between the 2-3 carbs and going up somewhere (they get moved all over). If you have a stock airbox, drill 2 holes in the front of it, away from the side where the air inlet slot is, and stick the ends of these hoses into the airbox. This creates a slight suction that helps pull the fuel down into the bowls. It also slightly causes improved richness at hi RPM on extended runs (like really fast riding), with attendant extra HP.

 Whoa, this one is real trouble, I think.  If I understand what you are describing, these hoses are the vent lines for the float bowls.  The pressure on the surface of the fuel in the float bowl relative to the reduced pressure in the carb throat is what pushes the fuel through the fuel jets.  The pressure in the airbox is separated from atmospheric by the filter membrane, and is lower than general atmospheric.  If the carb bowl vents are tapped into this lower pressure (reflected from the carb throat) the jets will all flow LESS than when a higher differential is applied across the borders of the individual fuel jets.  The only saving grace might be the carb overflow stand pipes.  These are also atmospheric vents when not occupied with fuel overflow.  And, hopefully they will negate any suction placed on the bowl vent tubes.

What's good about your suggestion, is that fuel vapors from the carb bowls would be sucked into the engine and burned, instead of dumped into the atmoshere while the engine is running.

Feel free to tell me where I failed the physics lesson.

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Offline Pinhead

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2006, 04:02:21 PM »
Very interesting.
Doug

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Offline angeldeville

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2006, 08:10:06 PM »
Thanks for the info! I tend to take it easy once I hit reserve anyway as I am usually in the middle of nowhere, hoping I don't have to push my bike to the nearest rapestation...
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2006, 09:55:47 PM »
Thanks for your insight, TT!
Let me see if I can respond (kindly, I hope) to some of your points.  :)

About this part:
The head pressure present at the fuel petcock outlet is a function of the total fuel depth in the tank.  An argument can be made that the head pressure at the top of the stand pipe is less than that at the bottom of the tank where the reserve feed is, as there is less fuel stacked in a column above the entrance orifice.  However, both the reserve orifice and the main orifice in the petcock have the same exit hole diameter and cross sectional area, and it exists at the same depth in the fuel tank.  They will have the same head pressure as they have identical columns of fuel above them being pulled by gravity.  Things change, of course, when the fuel level drops to the stand pipe tip.

I was trying to explain about that, maybe I didn't make real clear. The hydrostatic head, at the bottom of the petcock bowl, when the fuel is at least at the top of the RUN tube, is about 1.5 oz. When the fuel falls to the top of the RESERVE side of the petcock, it has dropped to about .12 oz. This lowering pressure (force) is where the problems originate: I'll try to elaborate below.

Quote
When the fuel level falls to stand pipe depth, the head pressure falls as the tube empties.  Then the engine runs lean when the supply can't meet the demand.  Switching to reserve immediately restores a head pressure equivalent of the remaining fuel level in the tank.  Longer lines become more difficult to fill as the head pressure reduces, however.  This may lead to a reduced level of fuel in the carb bowls farthest from the source of supply, assuming other fuel line impediments do not exist.  When the float bowls run low, the slow jet starts sucking air well below the lower main and the cylinder(s) goes lean, and hot.  This can happen as fuel levels approach the standpipe tip level if there is a minimum of sloshing in the tank (steady speed cruise on a smooth road for example).

Sure, that's why it sputters when we start to "run out" on MAIN. The things I'm attempting to explain are: what happens when the system's pressures fall to this lower (RESERVE) level.

Quote
These seem to be pretty low velocities and it's very hard to imagine such bends would have much of an impact on flow rates.

The pressure drop in a bend is related to the angle of the bend and the rate of fluid flow, minus a factor for laminar flow (i.e., the fluid nearest the pipe itself, which will hardly even move because of friction and small eddy forces). While the drops are very small in absolute number in a "drain system" like this fuel system, please remember that the head pressure on RESERVE is also very small to begin with: a bend-induced drop of .005 oz is equal to over 4% of what you have left. It really adds up in the last quart of gas.
(P.S., I think your math about fuel flow is good.)

Quote
Personally, I feel that leaning on reserve or main setting is more a function of the slow jet starving before the main at cruise as the float bowl fuel level drops..  I agree that a carb farthest from the fuel petcock may starve before others.  But, I don't see any physics that support the petcock itself from contributing to that starvation.

I used to agree with you, until I learned something from my fellow Production Racers in the early 1970s. One of them was Don Vesco, the guy famous for making Yamaha's TD350 go faster than Yosh could. I learned lots about these carbs from him: one of those things is about the pilot jet's action once the ram tube in the inlet side of the carb starts receiving significant velocities. I'll get to that part below, too.
Quote
What is not in your picture is a view of the outlet spigots.  This amounts to a horizontal tube supplied from one end with two downward outlet tubes along it's length. The fuel flows from the supply inlet toward the end and falls into the first outlet tube it encounters   Think of how a small ball bearing would travel in this arrangement.  When the first tube is filled, flow then continues on to the next outlet.  During periods of fuel supply starvation, the first tube is always the one supplied first, and the second tube can easily be more starved than the first one.  It is a matter of gravity in a gravity feed system.  One carburetor supply tube will always go dry before the other with this arrangement.  Personally, I'd like to see the longer fuel line at the far end of the petcock log.  The reasoning is that longer lines store more fuel than shorter one.  And there is a better chance that ALL carbs will starve together to give a drastic indication rather than just two cylinders behaving slightly different during idle jet starvation.

This gets bantered around a lot. The problem with the flow, when on RESERVE, is the very low head force: the moving bubble in the longer fuel line causes momentary compressions in the flow paths, which disrupts the flow completely for a while. I once discussed this with a fellow who insisted it be "tested" by removing the float bolws and watching the flow, which completely changes the physics of the whole system...  :(

Quote
(this is about the float vent tubes into the airbox...)
 Whoa, this one is real trouble, I think.  If I understand what you are describing, these hoses are the vent lines for the float bowls.  The pressure on the surface of the fuel in the float bowl relative to the reduced pressure in the carb throat is what pushes the fuel through the fuel jets.  The pressure in the airbox is separated from atmospheric by the filter membrane, and is lower than general atmospheric.  If the carb bowl vents are tapped into this lower pressure (reflected from the carb throat) the jets will all flow LESS than when a higher differential is applied across the borders of the individual fuel jets.  The only saving grace might be the carb overflow stand pipes.  These are also atmospheric vents when not occupied with fuel overflow.  And, hopefully they will negate any suction placed on the bowl vent tubes.

Actually, this part all started with two projects: Production Racing at 130+ MPH and drag racing with a turbo CB750. First, a bit of explanation to the novice: Production Racing, in the early 1970s, consisted of "stock" bikes. You could not change so much as a coil, carb, or shock on your bike. You could alter jetting, timing, oils, tires and pressures, but little else: it was "stock bike" racing. We found, on fast oval tracks, that the engines would go flat lean at speeds over 120. Problem was, if you simply "jetted fatter", then the midrange was so wet you could not dig out of a turn because it too too long to clean out, regardless of needle settings or calibrations. After hearing Mr. Vesco one day in a discussion of pumping out crankcase air ("positive venting" on 4-strokes) to improve RPM by reducing air friction, as he was doing at Bonneville, I wondered what other things vacuum could do. I tried this business of "positively venting" the float bowls to see if it would raise the float levels and improve the top end speed. Our plugs went from white to light tan, and the top end increased (we had no speedo, only a tach) 220 RPM or so. This allowed leaner mainjetting, which really helped on non-oval tracks, because we could control midrange better.

On the turbo bike, the owner had drilled out all the passages because he thought flow was the issue and bigger tubes would help. He was "running out of fuel" at about 2/3 of the track, you could hear it go flat lean. I raised his tank to ABOVE the front rubber mounts and set the back end on top of his seat to raise the head pressure: he went almost 10 MPH faster. (Then we installed a Gold Wing fuel pump instead.  ;)  ) It was just a matter of increasing the pressure to feed the fuel fast enough.

About 1997 or so, I obtained one of Motorola's tiny 0-2 PSI pressure transducers (like you find in the air sensing systems of today's cars). Using a separate 9 volt battery and stabilized power supply, I could see (on a voltmeter, while riding), a positive PSI reading in the vent tube (on cylinders 1&2) at high RPM. This reading would go away as soon as decel starts, or when the throttle setting was less than about 1/3 open. Vesco had explained that this positive PSI (which comes partly from your explanation of bowl pressure vs. venturi) pushes fuel up the emulsifier tubes in the carbs and this chills the area around the idle jet's inlet, raising air density at that spot and pushing back down the idle jet's throat, so to speak, which is one of the 2 reasons why the idle jet "fades out" about 1/4 throttle (the other reason is reduced venturi velocity over the jet). In these carbs, the tube that goes from the inlet flange down into the mainjet's emulsifier tube accelerates this process as airflow increases with throttle. At higher throttle settings, it begins to also push back DOWN into the fuel in the bowl, which creates some pressure in the bowl, slowing the fuel feed. That's where the high-speed starvation comes from. At really high RPM, Vesco hinted, the tube looks like it's boiling air DOWN into the float bowl!

So, I teed into the hole on my airbox (not inside the filter, just the box) to see what the reading did while connected to the carbs: it was a negative reading on the order of .1-.25 PSI (measuring in reverse, because it's not a vacuum sensor) when the RPM was higher. This confirmed Vesco's tips and helped explain my successful 1970s experiments that raised the float level, richening the mix, because it lowered the extra bowl pressure at higher RPM, letting fuel drain in a little easier. It seems that the richer mixture overcomes the slighter tendency to resist fuel flow up the emulsifier tubes with a higher vacuum in the bowl, but at 1/3 throttle, the venturi vacuum is on the order of 8 inches or more, while the float bowl (with the mod) only sees a fraction of an inch. I think that's probably why it works in touring, too.

Quote
Feel free to tell me where I failed the physics lesson.

Failed, hell! You just cheered me on. I haven't had a good workout like this in a long time, and this is what makes men's minds GREAT! Keep it coming: we can all figure it out, but not alone! ("A single log on the hearth will go out, but together they make a great fire.")   ;)

I hope this doesn't sound self-important: I'm just trying to spread around the things I've learned or observed.
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madbunny

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2006, 10:39:21 PM »
in a minorly related note:

i have a dead stock early production 750k4.
i have discarded the airbox in favor of pod filters.
at higher speeds (60mph+) and higher rpms (4000+) i'm noticing a sort of high speed "cavitation".
opening the throttle has little effect or a sputtering stumble.
however is if untuck my knees from around the bike it begins pulling strongly and smoothly.

is this just a case of air flowing around the bike and over my legs too cleanly and creating a strong enough vacuum to counteract the intake pulses in the carbs?

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2006, 11:19:07 PM »
i have heard that very phenomenon discussed here...yes. that was the epiphone...
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Offline techy5025

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2006, 11:29:37 PM »
Two thoughts...

1:  Why not route the fuel lines so there is no "uphill" segment.  Hence no bubble. I think
mine are.

2:  If "head" is an issue....pressurize the gas tank by channeling slipstream air to
the tank vent.

My course is fluid dynamics was 40 years ago, but at these flow rates I don't see an
issue here.

Jim
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2003 CBR600F4I
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Offline cbjunkie

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2006, 11:38:51 PM »
depends on which year model you have - you have two K0's right - well i don't know if you have the two-nipple petcock or not, but the right hand side, 2 nipp jobbo makes it difficult to route the tube to the right hand set of carbs - particularly if you are using an inline filter. it puts kinks in the tube...

judging your avatar photo i'd say it's not likely you have this problem.

my tubes go down 2 inches, inline, down and up into the carbs - the connecting t-tube b/w the 1-2, 3-4 is aimed down...i've never had a fuel flow problem, but i'm not racing, either...
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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2006, 04:11:27 AM »
Very interesting topic. 
The 1969-1974 CB750 and 1971-1973 CB500 share the same petcock as the 1974-1977 Kawasaki KZ400 btw (Thanks for helping me out on that one dgfischer).  The only diiference is that the dual outlets on the KZ petcock have an angle of 90 degrees to the petcock body, which I believe eliminates this problem (at least I haven't experienced any during 41 000 miles of riding).
However, the KZ petcock are hard to find, so a couple of KZ400 owners have fitted a Honda petcock. And we have been wondering about what sort of trouble they might run into with the outlet angled downwards.

What if you replace the rubber fuel lines with clear fuel lines. Wouldn't that make it easier to actually see what happens?

Offline techy5025

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2006, 11:05:06 AM »
I've been trying to find some clear lines.  All I find at the normal parts stores
are the heavy duty-high pressure quarter inch lines.  Maybe the lawn mower
people would have some.

Jim
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2006, 11:59:58 AM »
We have had reports of odd behavior with pods and the airflow around these bikes at speed. On the stock airbox the air enters from a small scoop at the bootom of the box. this scoop is pointed toward the rear - not the front. I guess they did some wind tunnel studies and found that spot had either stable air or some sort of higher pressure buildup. Put a pot belly like mine on the bike, only the lord knows how that changes the airflow.
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2006, 01:52:42 PM »
my pods do the same thing
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madbunny

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2006, 01:55:03 PM »
ah, the once again i must charge forward with the long neglected ram air system for my scoot.
i just have to figure out how to do it without over heating the engine at long lights and getting the suckers out in the wind without looking ridiculous.

Offline fang

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2006, 03:21:20 PM »
If you are concerned about fuel flow, here's an interesting idea

Long ago when doing a lot of semi-hard core expedition-type 4-wheeling we did a lot of deep water crossings.  After we got everything water tight we still regularily would get water in our differentials -- even with them correctly snorkled.  I realized that the differentials were relatively warm, and the water was usually very cold, and what would happen is that the cold water would chill them, create a sufficient pressure change to cause them to actualy suck in a little water (through the seals I think). 

What I ended up doing is I tapped the exhaust down pipe and threaded a pipe that I routed to the differentials.  I added a solenoid that allowed me to effectively pressurize the differentials with exhaust when doing water crossings, and then turn that off for the rest of the time.  It was really simple and worked great.  I never had water in my diffs again after that.

If you really cared, you could do a similar thing for your bike.  Tap the exhaust and run some plumbing to the fuel tank.  (Yes, that would involve some fuel tank modifications.)  Install an inline pressure regulator just to be safe, and modify the gas cap so it doesn't breathe anymore.  All this might be easier on a non-stock tank – one like a CR750 racer tank that comes with a vent in the tank and a sealed fuel cap.  Either way, you would maintain a constant low positive pressure in the tank and always have a pressurized fuel flow.  You'd never have to worry about routing fuel lines again....

On the other hand, it might be easier to just upgrade to a modern Pingle petcock and slightly larger fuel lines.  (http://www.pingelonline.com/fuel_valves.htm)  Or heck, do both.

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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2006, 04:01:43 PM »
Quote
Tap the exhaust and run some plumbing to the fuel tank.

What if a fleck of hot carbon were to follow this path?  :o
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Ibsen

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2006, 04:07:32 PM »
Also make shure that the vent hole in the fuel cap is clean and open. 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2006, 11:02:26 PM »
Okay, Hondaman, it took me a while to absorb your response, let it settle, and resolve the points.  All good, by the way.

Probably moot, but I still don't see this as a petcock problem for a street bike. (Yes, I've been called stubborn before.)

One item has to do with tank usage.  I guess I don't know how others behave.  But, when I get down to the point I require reserve setting, I fill up.  If I'm down to a quart in the tank, I'm considering panic as an option.  I can imagine racers will have a different viewpoint, perhaps.

I've got more experience with the 550 than the 750.  But, these tanks don't have a cross feed at the bottom,  And, fuel only gets over to the petcock side by sloshing.  As a pilot, we use terms like "useable fuel" and "time in your tank".  One of the most useless items is fuel at the filling station.  Unless it's in your machine's fuel tank, you can't use it.  Now, I admit to giving myself a cheap thrill by running my car on E for a few days.  But, I can honestly say I've never run out of gas with the airplane OR a motorcycle.  Perhaps pilot training has made me paranoid about fuel.  But, on the bike, when I have to switch to reserve, I find a gas station and fill up.  It is clearly the case that not all of the fuel tank contents is useable.  So, I have to feel like being down to the last quart is just asking for trouble.  I admit, sometimes that's what racing is all about.

I don't believe the 550 has a fuel line bubble problem from the factory.  I'm completely satisfied with keeping my tanks clean and the filter in or on top of the petcock, so I don't use in-line filters.  Also, I can't remember the last time I got the 550 up to 120. (snicker)  The single line feed of the 77 and 78 750s I have, also have a pretty constant fall to the carb inlet, too.  So, very little chance of bouncing bubbles during low fuel.  However, I imagine there *might* be bubbles in the internal log feed across the carbs.  Next time I have it up at 120 I'll certainly watch for the problem after I've switched to reserve 50 miles ago.  But wait, it has a different petcock.  Do I still need to worry about this?  ???


It does seem that the real root of the problem is the pressure into the bowl from the emulsion tube/ throttle valve interface at the carb venturi throat.  I can well understand that at high velocities the needle will create a pressure wave at the inlet and deflect some of the in rushing air right down into emulsion tube.  I don't know at what velocity this becomes and issue, but I can imagine it.
Seems to me a short ramp in front of the throttle valve to deflect air and shroud the exit hole ought to minimize back flow in the emulsion tube.  In fact, I feel certain I've seen this in other carbs somewhere.  But, I can't remember where.  I rather like the idea of fixing the problem at it's source, rather than adding a band aid type mod (no offense meant) to restore atmospheric pressure in the carb bowls, even if it does work.
Then again, I'm much more proficient at racing armchairs, than motorcycles these days.

Quite interesting, the racing history story.  And, kudos for actually instrumenting the pressures/vacuum.  Very research like.  Something I'm no stranger to in a different discipline.  Few on this forum would ever do that.  Measured performance to investigate cause, or to prove a remedy, is not normally found here.  Rather what feels or looks good.  No insult intended to anyone.  Just an observation from one who has studied facts and data for a good many years as a vocation.  Scientific testing yields positive steps forward, provided the tests are set up correctly.  Today, you wouldn't read a meter on the bike, though.  The crew chief would read the downloaded telemetry data on the laptop.  And, then ask the fuel man why the bike is going lean, then reprogram the "chip". I bet they can reprogram it on the track, before hitting the next straightaway.

Cheers,



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eldar

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2006, 07:12:32 AM »
Yeah I dont think the 77-78s have this issue. Completely different petcock design and only 1 tube to the carbs. I have never had fuel issues with carbs being starved other than hitting empty and having to go to reserve.

Offline cafehonda

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2006, 12:44:27 PM »
I couldn't agree more with Two Tired. If you operate under the assumption that your vehicle will fall 5000 feet out of the sky if you run out of fuel, you will remember ti fill 'er up. I open the cap every time I climb on. If I can't see fuel over the tank tunnel, it's time for a fill-up. Brilliant thread, by the way. Very 'fessional, just like the big boys downtown. ;D
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Fuel petcock physics.
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2006, 07:07:14 PM »
Probably moot, but I still don't see this as a petcock problem for a street bike. (Yes, I've been called stubborn before.)

One item has to do with tank usage.  I guess I don't know how others behave.  But, when I get down to the point I require reserve setting, I fill up.  If I'm down to a quart in the tank, I'm considering panic as an option.  I can imagine racers will have a different viewpoint, perhaps.


I think you're 100% correct on street bikes today. But, you're grey enough to remember the wide-open Interstates of the 1960s and -70s, I bet.    8)  I sure do miss those! 100 MPH touring was the norm for us "big four" riders then: my brother's 500 really got hot when we rode together. I slipped him some D8 plugs during our 2nd long ride together and we added some timing, then it was better. It still overheated when we got to Phoenix in August, though. He was never ability-challenged, just has a 27-inch inseam, so the "mid four" was always his best buddy. He rides a Goldwing today, but laments his 500 every time we talk. I sure loved mine while I had it, too. Kinda miss it today. If my 750 were to become gone, I'd be looking for a 500-4.

"Panic"? Oh, yeah...I once ran the right side of the tank all the way down in Utah when they were building that north-south Interstate (don't remember the number) in the 1970s. When I went on reserve, the (brand-new) overhead sign said "Gas-Food_Lodging 8 miles" (remember those?), so I thought all was cool. But, 8 miles later, the interchange was closed, with cops guarding it, because the recent rain had washed out the offramp (it was still dirt), and no traffic allowed, despite my explanation ("Move along, long-hair...") of low fuel. 20 miles later, sputter, croak. I was heavily loaded (and 2-up, 1st wife aboard), had to unload most of it, lay the bike over on the right side to get that last 1.5 pints, load up and try again. It quit just 100 feet from a little Texaco station with one (regular) pump, but that day, it was nectar!

Pilots, boy, you guys probably have built-in fuel gauges, right?
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