Author Topic: Needs opinions on my cafe hump  (Read 8163 times)

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Offline ncstatecamp

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Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« on: November 29, 2012, 12:54:09 PM »
This the foam plug to fiberglass. Just look for opinions.

Offline Jay D.

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 01:01:42 PM »
Can you please post a better profile pic?  Tough to really judge from those angles. 


Offline matt mattison

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 01:33:36 PM »
Not my cup of tea, the profile kinda looks like a duck head
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Offline singedebile

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 02:47:07 PM »
Not my cup of tea, the profile kinda looks like a duck head
yeah, I'm into duck tails.. but not so much duck heads hehe
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Offline Rigid

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 02:49:58 PM »
Taper that front some and blend into the tank.  Take advantage of the one true benefit of fiberglass which is no restrictions on forming complex shapes easily.
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Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 03:32:29 PM »
I like the curves and idea but i would tuck it down lower overall. I think the hump would look more fitting if it was shorter height wise. think like how a seca style is lower than most humps

Mold it nicely to the tank and i think it will be nice
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Offline wildcatmahone

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 03:44:58 PM »
Quack quack. IMO it's too long in the rear by 3-4 inches. Good luck getting all that foam dust off your bike haha.

Offline wildcatmahone

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 03:54:41 PM »
Here's a quick tip. Cut out a square from a piece of plywood or whatever. Then cut out a rectangle the height and width of your cowl centered and aligned to the bottom edge of it. Place that along the cowl at several points along it's length. It'll help as a visual aid in judging the overall symmetry of your seat. Good luck.

Offline XLerate

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 04:57:17 PM »
On the genuine race bikes the reason for the seat and hump form is aerodynamics. The air is supposed to be forced up and over the high pressure area of the fairing, across helmet top, down the back in that low pressure area, across the buns and over seat hump. As it flows over seat hump there's relative high pressure just above the envelope rider is in. Air flows off seat hump and curls around downward and back forward in a C shape because of high pressure flowing over just above it and thereby pushes on rear of motorcycle which is in a relative low pressure zone.

This high pressure push into the rear low pressure area and bike's rear give a slight aerodynamic advantage.

The hump has to be high enough to do this, becoming part of the flow shape over rider's profile, and the rounding should occur soon enough that the airflow doesn't just flush off into the airstream behind instead of curling around to give a push.

That also gives a clue to the proper angle curvature of the rear hump, not too round, not too tapered, not too long but integral with the overall form of a single laminar flow caused by rider's hunched over profile.

Knowing that: a side view picture with hunched over rider's profile sketched to scale in will tell you what profile is ideal or correct, something like the old factory GP bikes.

Offline Rigid

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 05:31:53 PM »
Or a suitable wind tunnel  ;)
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Offline Toxic

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 04:19:00 AM »
The foam is too wide at the front by the time you are done with the fibreglass and the cover it will be even wider.  IMO

Offline Rookster

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 09:45:23 PM »
Quote
On the genuine race bikes the reason for the seat and hump form is aerodynamics.

Your cafe hump will have absolutely no effect on aerodynamics.  You could make it into a rectangle and it wouldn't slow you down one bit.  If you look at real aerodynamic data on motorcycles you find a mess of turbulence behind the rider.  Your cafe hump would have to come up to meet the top of your helmet and softly taper from your shoulders and head to have any aerodynamic benefit.

This is what you are dealing with:







This is not reality!  As soon as the air hits the top of your helmet it starts to eddie and create turbulence:



See!



This is what real aerodynamic motorcycles look like:







About motorcycle aerodynamics: http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Aerodynamics/AERO.htm


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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 10:45:35 PM »
On the genuine race bikes the reason for the seat and hump form is aerodynamics. The air is supposed to be forced up and over the high pressure area of the fairing, across helmet top, down the back in that low pressure area, across the buns and over seat hump. As it flows over seat hump there's relative high pressure just above the envelope rider is in. Air flows off seat hump and curls around downward and back forward in a C shape because of high pressure flowing over just above it and thereby pushes on rear of motorcycle which is in a relative low pressure zone.

This high pressure push into the rear low pressure area and bike's rear give a slight aerodynamic advantage.

The hump has to be high enough to do this, becoming part of the flow shape over rider's profile, and the rounding should occur soon enough that the airflow doesn't just flush off into the airstream behind instead of curling around to give a push.

That also gives a clue to the proper angle curvature of the rear hump, not too round, not too tapered, not too long but integral with the overall form of a single laminar flow caused by rider's hunched over profile.

Knowing that: a side view picture with hunched over rider's profile sketched to scale in will tell you what profile is ideal or correct, something like the old factory GP bikes.

I'm with Rookster on this, no advantage at all, especially at the speeds these bikes travel at....

You can clearly see in these links that the tail piece has little to no effect on air passing over the rider..

http://www.motogp.com/en/photos/2002/Honda+wind+tunnel

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/bmw-s1000rr-wsbk-wind-tunnel-photos/

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2009/february/2-8/feb0409-aprilia-rsv4-in-wind-tunnel/

« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 10:51:28 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline davis96

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 11:05:31 AM »
Should've guessed a lot of people would miss the point and make this a question of aerodynamics instead of aesthetics. What they're saying is true but 99.9% of cafe bubble seats are all about appearance. That said, my main critique would be that  it is way too wide at the rear, hardly and taper. Also the hump part is a bit long and frankly just a strange shape.
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Offline ncstatecamp

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Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 02:46:02 PM »
I agree on the length and width but. It has to be that long due to me welding a hoop on with a flip up bend. I made it that long bc I plan on doin another seat in brat style for 2 up riding. As for the height imagine it lower by an inch with the bottom flush inline with the tank. I'll take more pics sunday I'm thinking of widening back out the dip in piece as well.

Offline crazypj

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 04:32:15 PM »
Looks to me as if it can't decide on being 'cafe' or tracker?
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Offline davis96

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 06:02:13 PM »
a few modifications: move the front of the hump back a bit, eliminate the duck portion (I know there is a loop welded, but the seat doesn't necessarily have to follow the loop to a T especially if it is kind of squarish)
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Offline XLerate

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 06:52:26 PM »
Thanks, Rookster,

I wrote out a better reply but unfortunately board software decided to eat it. I'll try again, never as good a second time of course but just as long.

The designs of a full fairing, short flat bars, breadloaf tank and seat hump first appeared back in the very early 60's or before. You'll notice my reply said, "On the genuine race bikes the reason for the seat and hump form is aerodynamics. The air is supposed to be forced up and over the high pressure area of the fairing, across helmet top, down the back in that low pressure area, across the buns and over seat hump. As it flows over seat hump there's relative high pressure just above the envelope rider is in. Air flows off seat hump and curls around downward and back forward in a C shape because of high pressure flowing over just above it and thereby pushes on rear of motorcycle which is in a relative low pressure zone.

This high pressure push into the rear low pressure area and bike's rear give a slight aerodynamic advantage."

This was the reasoning for doing it back then, so that statement is quite true. As stated, it was 'supposed to be'. Much has been learned since then. Wind tunnel testing was extremely expensive back in the very early 60's. For the most part only large aircraft companies had the money or facilities to carry out such research. It wasn't cost effective or even possible for a small motorcycle mfgr. on a desperate budget to do that for the sake of a single model that might sell in the few thousands or run one or a handful of races? So, most design work was done in the mind and on paper with some supporting longhand calculations and a whole bunch of good intentions. The riders proved or disproved out on the track.

You'll notice that pictures 1, 2 & 5 intending to show me mistaken all show a rider in an upright position, contrary to a rider in a crouch that I referenced. Other pictures 3 and 4 with a crouching rider seem to support what I had stated though it's unimportant. All those pictures are computer simulations where data causing a desired picture and intended result is entered and the picture is made by computer in the pixtels that were encoded. That's a bit different from a wind tunnel.

Unfortunately the text provided doesn't give details of Dr. Kamm's work though it mentions him. He did much to change prevailing thoughts on low speed aerodynamics and was a real pioneer. It's mostly thanks to him that we see spoilers on just about anything with wheels for the last 40+ years! The results of his research do support some or even most of what I described but the short mentions posted don't describe any of that.

Don't know how much of his work is available on the net but if it's there it's well worth the effort to track down 'Kamm Theory Spoiler' or 'Kamm theory aerodynamics' etc. for those interested in low speed aerodynamics, even fascinating.

In his cutting edge research he found that previously 'undesireable' eddies and turbulence behind a moving shape could be made to work positively, to actually push instead of create a low pressure drag or disrupted airflow, revolutionary to us at the time! Still, those were things of a different space in time, now long gone forever.

Remember please, we didn't have computers or megapixel simulations back then and even a hand held calculator was cutting edge technology for our pencil and paper draftboards, longhand calculations and head scratching.

Other examples would be the megaphone exhausts that appeared on those 4 stroke race bikes for a time. Of course we copied them as soon as they were seen. We and the designers thought they were maybe the absolute best answer yet, maybe: that the continually expanding shape would allows gases to exhaust effortlessly with zero back pressure and actually be extracted by the moving bike and low pressure behind it, what a concept! Since then large advances in research have proven much better designs that actually physically extract the exhaust pulses through wave reversion. However that's after the fact so it didn't stop anybody at the time, way back when and it was really fun trying.

I still very much appreciate young men attempting to give their own interpretation to some timeless designs from machines of days gone by and it's a lasting tribute to those many folks from long ago that became the legends of today.

The main event is to to always know what direction you're headed in and to do your best with a good heart and clean conscience to make the times you're in the most exciting times of all!

Stay with it, Ncstatecamp, you're doing just fine!

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2012, 07:49:59 AM »
I like the 'new' version much better  8)
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Offline davis96

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2012, 12:52:42 PM »
I like the 'new' version much better  8)

photoshop but I hope he takes it to heart
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Offline lone*X

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Re: Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 04:47:39 PM »
Aerodynamics?  Aesthetics?   I thought the only reason for the seat hump was to keep you from sliding off the rear when you did those 8G burnouts.  Isn't that the reason they call them "Bum Stops"?   ;D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 04:49:10 PM by lone*X »
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Offline ncstatecamp

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Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
I like the 'new' version much better  8)

photoshop but I hope he takes it to heart


Davis, I like that a lot. I'm also trying to figure out how to attach it to the frame, thinking of epoxying abs blocks with a hinge and pin so the hinge still works and abs support to the frame. By the looks of your photoshop it goes from covering the frame to sitting on top. Not sure how to accomplish this.

Offline ncstatecamp

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Needs opinions on my cafe hump
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2012, 05:46:20 PM »
Hasnt been adjusted yet but here's it in tape (was taped before the suggestions, I'm going to add great stuff foam into the dips).