Topic: Help, could this be true? An R&D 1972 CB750. Need expert opinion!!!!

[Geeto67]

Here is something interesting, about Honda.  It seems during the 70's and well into the early 80's they would give pre-production motorcycles to local Honda dealers for use as "parts bikes".   Unfortunately, Honda found out that the dealers were instead selling these bikes to buyers in the United States.   So there is a grain of truth in the story.  But the part about Honda demanding that the bike be given back after it was sold is a little hard to swallow.  Especially, if you know anything about Honda's legal department.

Honda used to also give bikes to schools with motorcycle shop programs to teach the next generation of motorcycle mechanics how to work on their "complicated" OHC machines. It is the reason why you see so many NOS CBXs with 0 miles but fully assembled. They weren't supposed to be able to sell the bikes as bikes when done and honda used to take back the bikes, but there is always a work around.

Firehose84:
Unless there is an actual letter from Honda, this story about it being R&D will always be dubious. Even if it was partially true, the likelihood of it being an R&D bike vs something like a press bike or a a JDM bike that was accidently sent to america, is extremely unlikely. It could have been a japanese magazine test for all anybody knows. You could try contacting honda's museum (and archive) and see what they have to say about it but I wouldn't get my hopes up that they have any idea what you are talking about (and by the way you will have to get someone who speaks japanese to call).

[Greggo]

That is a very nice bike, whatever it is...

[Roach Carver]

I would keep it stock. It is far more valuable in stock form (me thinks). I would guess the value at around 3-5k? Look at some completed ebay auctions and see for yourself. I would pay no more than I could purchase a nice stock comparable bike for. The 4-1 header is worth a couple hundred maybe.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Yeah, nice bike!

Observations: 2 different front discs, extended forks with replacement extended brake hose and metal brake pipe gone, 2 exhausts, different tires, 2 different sets of bars, etc. What else do we notice? The "Honda" on that exhaust is not like any "Honda" font I've ever seen. I'm gonna have to say that someone other than Honda has been playing with this bike. Nice bike.

I'm not a K kinda guy though.

Nice bike

[Stev-o]

Isee this bike selling on eBay in the spring for $5K. Lose the story, it's not helping.
And value could increase if brought back to 100% stock.

[ekpent]

I bought this K1,numbers on engine and frame etc are correct,at an auction a few years back but the tank and side covers are orange K2,so things do get changed around on these over the years, or do they,Hmmmmmm 

[Tews19]

I bought this K1,numbers on engine and frame etc are correct,at an auction a few years back but the tank and side covers are orange K2,so things do get changed around on these over the years, or do they,Hmmmmmm 

Eric! I'm saving some money for my trip to your place to buy a bike! Then hopefully you won't think I'm to weird and can show me some sweet roads to ride on.

[HondaMan]

Nice-lookin' bike! It has instruments from a K0 diecast/K1, dashboard from a K2, seat and tank from an early (pre-March 1972) K2, grab rail from a K1 with the K2 seat latch, shocks that appear to be almost 14" long, front fender stays of the pre-k3 style, and much better paint than any 750 made before 1975. The production bikes of the pre-1975 era were not real pretty paint, despite the famous orange metalflake K3. It just didn't shine, and even Blue Coral treatments just rubbed it to the primer. So, there's some unique things on this bike, be interesting to see it up close.

The long collector on the 4-1 pipe might actually work, though... 

[Don R]

A friend of mine won a new 67 mustang in a national Monogram slot car contest. It was a POS right off the bat. We learned years later, ford used to take test track cars, that were beat 24/7 in testing, toss a new engine/trans in them and use them as promotional cars. Probably what his was.

Point is, things like that did happen.

[lucky]

This story is completely bogus!

I was a dealership mechanic.
 When motorcycles came to the dealership
back in those days they were in a crate and not fully assembled.
If it had that exhaust on it, the mechanics would have immediately noticed it and called a Honda USA representative.

It would certainly not have been sold to a customer.
And what IS the serial number on the frame and engine?
Why won't you tell us?

When a Statement of Facts is filled out at a DMV it is because the bike is modified
and has no frame number. Like a chopper build in California. It is a form DMV 256.

When Honda did R&D it was on a racing motorcycle. Not on a street production motorcycle. The Japanese did not make that kind of 4 into 1 exhaust. Yoshimura was the first to make aftermarket parts.

Lets have the frame and engine number.

BTW...No bike is "normally" destroyed!!! Prototype,R&D or not. Ridiculous statement.
Nothing unusual about the paint.

But this whole section of the SOHC forum is like a war zone of these kind of statements and stories. Put on your flak jackets people.

[Hasenkopf]

The vin# is 2055720. Engine# is CB7502063662. Thanks for your comments.
Any idea what the bike and all the parts should sell for??           

[Greggo]

This story is completely bogus!

I was a dealership mechanic.
 When motorcycles came to the dealership
back in those days they were in a crate and not fully assembled.
If it had that exhaust on it, the mechanics would have immediately noticed it and called a Honda USA representative.

It would certainly not have been sold to a customer.
And what IS the serial number on the frame and engine?
Why won't you tell us?

When a Statement of Facts is filled out at a DMV it is because the bike is modified
and has no frame number. Like a chopper build in California. It is a form DMV 256.

When Honda did R&D it was on a racing motorcycle. Not on a street production motorcycle. The Japanese did not make that kind of 4 into 1 exhaust. Yoshimura was the first to make aftermarket parts.

Lets have the frame and engine number.

BTW...No bike is "normally" destroyed!!! Prototype,R&D or not. Ridiculous statement.
Nothing unusual about the paint.

But this whole section of the SOHC forum is like a war zone of these kind of statements and stories. Put on your flak jackets people.

OK Honda CB750 Experts. I need your opinion of a 1972 Honda CB750 K2 that I found for sale. It has an interesting story behind it, that maybe “could be true”.

Supposedly, this Honda CB750 K2, when shipped to the original selling dealership, was like no other.
When the crate was opened, this bike was found to be green, a K1 color. Also, it had a 4 into 1 exhaust with a Honda emblem on it (see pics), a 21” front rim and tire, an 18” DID alloy rear wheel, stainless steel spokes, drilled disk rotor, as well as some other “non-stock-items”
It is stated that Honda contacted the dealer, and wanted the bike back due to the fact that it was an R&D bike, not intended for sale. But subsequently allowed the owner of the bike to keep it.

The vin# and engine# are 1972 numbers.

The attached e-mails are from Chris, the current owner, and Tim, his father owned the Honda shop where the bike was originally sold. Tim took over the dealership in 1975.

The bike is being sold with a bunch of parts. I don’t have a list, but I have pictures of the parts being offered with the sale.

Attached are pictures of the bike as it sits now, note the exhaust is the stock 4 to 4. The bike looks to be in excellent condition. Also pictures of the parts that go with the bike and two pictures of the bike with the 4 into 1 exhaust.

Sorry for being so long winded. Can this all be true? An R&D CB750? What could this be worth with the parts being offered?

Thanks for your help and opinions. If any other information is needed or questions answered, please ask.

E-Mail 1:

Dear Tim,

Thanks for the information you shared with me on the phone regarding my 1972 CB750K2.  I will FAX you a copy of the DMV paperwork (one page) that I have.  I'll also copy the original owner's insurance card with his name on it.  I think this is "John" that you were referring to.
 
I bought the bike about 2 months ago from a fellow named Pat Dunn who is the shop manager at Barnett Clutches in Ventura.  He had only had it
about a month after obtaining it from John who Dunn said he has known for years.  He said John is about 80 years old now and that John was the original owner.  It was Dunn who told me this was a R  D bike and gave me the DMV form that I will FAX to you.  He asked me to not contact John as he did not want him to know he had sold the bike (I'm guessing it was given to Dunn at a very good price or gifted). 
I have honored that request, but would like to know more about the bike.  I don't know what, if anything, that John may have changed.
 
I would very much appreciate you putting in writing--email is fine--what you discussed with me about it really being a R  D bike, that normally those bikes were destroyed and not sold, that it was green when sold, had those odd turn signal lens, 4 into 1 exhaust, and any other recollections or information that you recall about how Rice Honda obtained the bike, sold it, etc.  This is the only way I know of to sort of document that this bike really was a R  D bike that came this way and not just some cobbled together CB750.  It makes the bike more interesting as it is unique. 
 
Also, if you know, what type of things would Honda have been playing with on a bike like this to call it a R  D bike? 

I attached a couple photos of the bike and the rear turn signal lens, tail light lens, and front fender that was on it.
 
Here is a list of some of the "different" things I noticed about the bike compared to a stock CB750K2. 
1.  The bike is green which was a K1 color, and from what I have
     researched, not used on K2's.
2.  It has a 21" chrome front wheel rather than standard 19".
3.  It has a DID alloy 18" rear wheel rather than the standard steel
     wheel.
4.  Spokes are stainless steel.
5.  Disk rotor is drilled.
6.  Rear turn signal lens had the centers cut out and red lenses installed.  You said you recalled these.  I have these, but put stock lens on.
7.  The red tail light lens similarly had pieces cut out and replaced with amber pieces. 
8.  It has a K1 rear fender and tail light on it, but also came with the whole K2 rear fender (among many extra parts).
9.  The photo shows the bike with a stock front fender which actually clears the 21" tire!  But it had another chrome fender with some
     makeshift brackets to fit the larger wheel.  The nuts and bolts on this fender still have the yellow paint dabbed on them.
10. It has a 4 into 1 header with a metal "Honda" emblem screwed into
      the muffler.  It did not come with the original mufflers.  Also the header clamps at the head are smooth chrome, not the original finned clamps.

Pat Dunn thought it had some engine modifications too such as a lightened crank and modified cam, but he had no proof of that.  He said it was simply his understanding that had been done.  It also has a complete Dyna electronic ignition system that Dunn said he installed about 12 years ago for John.
 
There are many spares that Dunn thought had come with the bike originally including two 19" front wheel assemblies, a complete engine
and gearbox less the crankcase halves, a spare bank of carbs, two sets of sprockets, a couple oil filter housings, air box, oil tank, electric
starter motor, a couple brake calipers, spare instruments, rear fender assembly, extra turn signals, swing arm, a couple chain guards,  and
much more.  All parts are used and generally in good condition, except for the front wheels which are pretty rusty.  Dunn was under the impression that most of these spares came with the bike when John bought it.  Do you think all these parts were sold with the bike?
   
By the way, the bike looks great, runs fine, and gets compliments whenever I ride it. 
 
Thanks, Tim, for your time.  I really appreciate it!
Chris
   
E-Mail 2:

Dear Chris:

I was formerly a second generation Honda motorcycle dealer. My father ran the dealership from 1962 until he passed away in 1980. I started working at the dealership full time in 1975. The purpose of this letter is to explain what I know about the above motorcycle. 

Late in the 1980s or early 1990s I had a visit from John Mushegan. He told me that he had bought this motorcycle from my father in 1972.  According to his account this motorcycle was shipped to our dealership in error. It was used by Honda Research and Development and not intended for retail sale. It is an industry standard practice to crush (destroy) R&D models as they are not DOT approved for sale in the United States. Honda attempted to retrieve the motorcycle from our dealership after the mistake was realized, but it had already been sold to Mr. Mushegan, so he was allowed to keep it.

The point of Mr. Mushegan's visit to me was that he needed a statement of facts signed by me for the Department of Motor Vehicles as to the origin of this motorcycle.  I assumed that the vehicle identification number was inconsistent with similar Honda CB750s of this year. 

He had very specific language that he needed on the statement of facts for the DMV. I was happy to help this customer by signing the document he needed so that he could complete his DMV paperwork. Although I had no way of verifying the accuracy of his story, I could see no harm in signing the document. It sounded exactly what the DMV might require to register a bike with an irregular VIN.

I do remember the motorcycle, as he rode it into our La Puente dealership for me to see it. The distinctive features of the motorcycle that I remember were:
1)  The green color,
2)  The four into one exhaust
3)  The DID alloy rear wheel
4)  The taillight and turn signal lenses were stock red with round
    amber inserts in the middle of the lenses.

I hope this helps "clear the air".  Good luck with your classic Honda.
Sincerely,-Tim Rice
Former Owner,
Rice Honda Sea Doo

Vin# 2055720
CB750E-2063662

Jeeze man...

[LoVel]

Offer him $3000 and see what happens.

I am assuming it runs and runs well. 

[Stev-o]

Offer him $3000 and see what happens.

Or did you already buy it?

[cbr954]

I just noticed this bike originated from Rice Honda...my local Honda dealer.  I have dealt with the Rice's, take there story with a grain of salt, not saying it is not true but they will do anything to make a buck.

[ekpent]

I keep drifting back to the pictures of all the extra spare parts layed out on the floor which is quite a cache. Has to be from several other bikes of various years including K1,so somebody was collecting-scrapping out a couple of machines at one time. For what its worth the Honda marked 4-1 header shown in the box used the stock headpipes with an aftermarket slip on muffler/megaphone of some type.
  All in all it would be a fun bike to aquire,especially with all the spares and I don't think anybody here has been very hostile about it too bad yet ??

[george]

I hope it is true , how awesome would it be to own that history.
What I do know is I spent all my time as an early teenager (15 in 1970) at the local shop, not a Honda dealer but the only Cycle Shop for miles. Guys would buy their 750's in Charlotte and do add-ons and maintenence here. In late 71 there was a fellow with a Ruby Red showroom stock appearing bike that out ran all takers. The shop owner rode it and agreed that it indeed did have something extra.Everyone said it had to have a non stock engine, seems they all talked about the lope at idle. I never found out what was special about it as I left for the AF early in 72.

[LoVel]

I didn't realize all the spares came with the bike.  Offer him $4000.

[Honda Tom]

No, I have not seen the bike in-person yet. I'm going to look at it sunday and take some pictures myself.
The guy selling is asking $5,000, includes all the parts that someone collected over the years.
The parts have to be worth a few bucks themselves...right?

SO..What do I look for regarding to confirm that is is an original 1972 and not some hack job that someone threw together and has this wild story.

Also, the seller said it has about 13,000 miles on it.
What I could find on the vin and engine numbers, they appear to be 1972 numbers. vin# 2055720, CB750E-2063662.

I'll report back sunday night with the results. Thanks for the comments.

[DJ_AX]

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.
Some people are real good at it.

[Greggo]

Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.
Some people are real good at it.

Maybe, but at least he's not asking a sky high price to go with that story.  Personally, I think that bike and all those parts are easily worth his asking price...and if he could be talked down even a little from that, it would be a solid price for all that in Southern California.

[Honda Tom]

Thanks greggo. I bet thet '51 356 is going to be SWEEEEEET. That i'd like to see.

[750K]

Story aside, it's still a real clean looking bike you could keep as is or easily put back to bone stock with the parts included by the looks of it. I've seen bikes in my area that weren't as clean looking go for 3000-4000, so the price he's asking isn't that bad considering it's shape plus parts. I'd go look at it with 3000 in my pocket and have another 2000 in my wallet in case. I don't know if I'd go up to 5000, I'd have to see it up close and hear it run or take it for a spin around the block.

[KC_Northstar]

I don't believe the story at all.  It looks like a K2 that has been modified.  The mods are just simple bolt ons.  The serial number,
although somewhat early, indicates it was well into the K2 production.  Why would the factory revert back to K1 bolt on parts for R&D work ??
The exhaust looks to be after market.  I see nothing that indicates any kind of "factory R&D work"
The serial number indicates it is the early K2 that shares all major parts with the K1.  Same front forks, front fender, caliper mount, headlight ears (just chromed) and rhino clamp gauges. At Serial num 2093731 all that changed to the K3 parts.
Its easy to spot the early vs late K2's by where the front turn signals are mounted.  Early, before 2093731 has the turn signals
mounted like the K1 at the same spot the headlight shell is mounted. Late K2, 209731 forward,  have them mounted farther back on the headlight ears, same as a K3.  I think the K2 is the only year that has such a varied build.

With that said, it appears to be in great condition and would be a easy resto or just leave it like it is and ride. Also, if all those parts are included, well that only adds to the value.  If it runs good, I would say the 3,000 to 5,000 dollar range.

KC

[Honda Tom]

I agree DJ, that's why I'm asking for experts opinion. KC, thanks for the incite. I just want to buy a decent 750 and not get ripped off. I've been drooling over them since i was 16 in 1970. I bought a brand new CB350 in 1971. Wish I still had that one also.