Topic: White Smoke, or too rich opinions :Video attached

[scrichton]

Hi Guys,

I've managed to finally get my CB 550 (78 k3) running, but I'm starting down the painful is it carbs / fuel / engine type of thing.

As you can see in the video I have attached it's a little smokey / steamy. Before buying a compression tester or starting to look at tearing down the head I'd like some opinions on whether you believe this is white smoke, or too lean or too rich. I'm used to the blue smoke, thing, but I'm finding it a little hard to tell here.

The bike has sat for about 5 months in the previous owners as an ornament in his bar ( he's a chopper builder ) therefore it's not really been used much at all. The previous owner and re-builder has done the exhaust change, JAMA 4 into 1, he has also previously made his own filters by glueing scouring pads to the airbox tubes. These are now replaced by cones, which have been freshly oiled, as the airbox I ordered from the states has taken a while to get here (in scotland)

The bike idles fine, I need to adjust down slightly (1500rpm) and on my first ride yesterday, apart from slamming the throttle wide too quickly, the bike pulls fine all the way to 8K (it was icy so 80mph was as fast as I dared go) . So general running and fuel seems ok. There is no apparent misfire either at low or high rpm, also valve gear and chain seem quiet once warmed up to operating temp.

I know there are a lot variables here, but I think I need an opinion first before starting to try to diagnose everything all at once.

Anyway here is video. The outside temp is about 2 deg celcius, if not less. The engine has been running for a couple of minutes and the choke is closed at this point.

Oh a final question, does the 550 require the engine to be removed to get the head off if it is this?

Your opinions will be greatly appreciated. Btw, on every other thing this bike has stolen my heart! It's a great ride and make a great compliment to my BMW thumper.

Steven

I CAN't post external links to youtube, so here is the broken down URL!! (anyone know how I can get access to do this?)

youtube  /watch?v=ENzW3SyOuCQ

[goldarrow]

Here I fixed the link for you

Cb550 startup

May be valve stem seals need to be replaced. Someone in the know will chime in

[scrichton]

Thanks,

I've also colour balanced the video now, so grey is grey. So you can see the colour of the smoke more accurately.

Steven

[cbr954]

Because I can see your breath in the video it just looks like normal cold weather exhaust to me.  You will get a lot of water vapor showing when it is that cold out.  If it looks like this when it is warm out then you have a problem.

[scrichton]

It does die down a bit even in the cold, but there is a very acrid smell to the exhaust, I ran it indoors for a while and it was pretty smoggy inside.

Testing in the warm is unfortunately out with my control until I invent a weather machine

[crazypj]

Sounds like your going to have to wait until next 'summer'  to get warmer weather (or move south  )
 Probably just condensation. How long are you running motor?
 Crankcases should be too hot to touch
BTW, your better off holding a high idle than cranking on throttle (2,500~3,000rpm)
 It will probably take 20 mins or so to get hot
' JAMA Original' is OK exhaust

[scrichton]

it had been idling, this is a little bit of a longer video that was for a guy in work to hear the wonderfully brutal noise that can makes

[captain hopeless]

When I got my 350 running it seemed to take a couple of rides at full operating temp before the moisture burned away. My rev counter glass was fogging up with condensation coming from the cylinder head, I think.

I had read that white smoke could mean 'rich', but in my experience it was just water. My bike is still running too rich - fouling plugs - but doesnt smoke. Seems like it would need to be extremely rich to smoke as a result?

Next came smoke from the oil I had poured into the exhaust to try to preserve them... so after half a dozen hot rides I finally had a smokeless bike.

[crazypj]

Running rich gives black smoke/soot.
Oil would wash off cylinder walls pretty quick and go from bluish to black (easily seen over clean concrete)

[scrichton]

Well today was about 6/7 celcius, a veritable scottish summer in winter! Anyway, white smoke. 100%. Not a huge amount, but enough it's the head off and the rest.

So moving on there... can you remove the head with the engine in, or does the whole lot require to come out to do such a task?

(crosses fingers it's an engine in job)

Also is there anything else I should expect to do when the head is off, mileage wise the bike has done 31000, so not a great deal.

Steven

[Blackandsilver]

Hey hey,
Yeah you can rebuild the top end without pulling the motor.
I've had the white smoke problem before. The piston top ring was installed upside down. Also smelled terrible.
Look at that when you pull your jugs.
Good luck!


Win some lose some, it's all the same to me.

[goldarrow]

Yes you can service top end without removing the engine.

[robmanero]

I would say you've got an oil burner there. Exhaust shouldn't smoke like that after it's been warmed up awhile. Do you have good fresh gas in it? If so, I'd say ride the thing for a good half hour or so, if it continues to smoke it's probably burning oil. Rich condition will be heavy black smoke. Won't make any smoke if it's too lean. After you ride it pull the spark plugs and check them out. Heavy light colored ash deposits indicate oil burning (might take a while for deposits to build up). If it's burning oil, you're looking at valve seals or piston rings. Probably rings if it's smoking heavily like that. Top end comes apart with motor in frame, plenty of room. I did one recently.

[bollingball]

Don't get in such a hurry to take the motor apart. You never really know the full story on how long a bike has sat. Put fresh gas in it and run it a couple of hundred miles to let all the rings work loose and seat in. Then see what you have you may be surprised. I would put some seafoam in the gas for those 200 miles.
Ken

[scrichton]

Don't get in such a hurry to take the motor apart. You never really know the full story on how long a bike has sat. Put fresh gas in it and run it a couple of hundred miles to let all the rings work loose and seat in. Then see what you have you may be surprised. I would put some seafoam in the gas for those 200 miles.
Ken

it was run for about an hour and the smoke stank of oil once warm. it's not worth ignoring the obvious. The fuel is fresh in, so alas, unless I filled it with oil by mistake the white smoke is oil.

Valve stem seals are a day's work. Nothing too bad. I used to do my mini in 1 hour flat for a head and seal swap. and this time there is no stupid three branch exhaust and bulkhead to tear my hand apart on

[matt mattison]

Don't get in such a hurry to take the motor apart. You never really know the full story on how long a bike has sat. Put fresh gas in it and run it a couple of hundred miles to let all the rings work loose and seat in. Then see what you have you may be surprised. I would put some seafoam in the gas for those 200 miles.
Ken

+1 to this^^. Do the 3000 mile tune up as described in your shop manual. Ride it for a several hundred kilometers. If its still smoking, compression and possibly do a leak down test . With one of those tests, hopefully you can isolate the issue. Honestly, if you just took the head off at this point, would you really know what you were looking for?

[goldarrow]

You'll get plenty of responses, advises, recommendation, etc but it all comes down what you decide to do with your bike. Just take your best approach, both time and money counts.

So, if your mind is set on doing top end, go through the manual, about $200 in gaskets, rings, and bunch of rubbers for top end, check specs against the manual. If you already have all parts and tools ready, this can be done in a day or one weekend.

[crazypj]

You'll get plenty of responses, advises, recommendation, etc but it all comes down what you decide to do with your bike. Just take your best approach, both time and money counts.

So, if your mind is set on doing top end, go through the manual, about $200 in gaskets, rings, and bunch of rubbers for top end, check specs against the manual. If you already have all parts and tools ready, this can be done in a day or one weekend.

You'll get plenty of responses, advises, recommendation, etc but it all comes down what you decide to do with your bike. Just take your best approach, both time and money counts.

So, if your mind is set on doing top end, go through the manual, about $200 in gaskets, rings, and bunch of rubbers for top end, check specs against the manual. If you already have all parts and tools ready, this can be done in a day or one weekend.

^^^^^^
+1

[scrichton]

Gaskets ordered (£50 for a full kit from david silvers in the UK) and master cylinder + braided lines, so I think I'll err on caution do the work and have the bike ready for the next season here. Plus it leaves me enough time too to get it dynoed; sort the tail and indicator lights and get a slightly lower seat made up. It's a toy and a hobby, so I might as well get stuck in. Until then I can always act like a hooligan on my GS

Thanks for all the advice guys it's been really helpful.

Steven

[goldarrow]

Full gasket set comes with bottom cylinder gasket and o-rings, so you might as well replace rings and hone cylinder, chamfer oil holes on the cylinder. Also replace o-ring down on the shift shaft and oil pump is a good idea. And more.

[Fritz]

To me it looks like water vapour and that changing oil, tuning it up and riding it until all that condensation vanishes should be enough.
But you seem to have some experience, and be eager to look inside the motor.
The 500/550 top end is easy to work on while the motor is in the frame, but there's one thing that you really should take of.
Installing the rocker cover needs to be done carefully:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=72837.0
Some of us (me included) learned the hard/expensive way...

Cheers
Carsten

[scrichton]

ouch! thanks for that. 

I'm going to keep riding it until everything is ready, just would like to not leave a massive plume of smoke wherever I go

[scrichton]

Well I have the bike in just now getting the top end done as I came into a little money, so all going to plan next week she's back on the road.

I have also managed to pick up a full set of lights from a bonneville, so they will go on too, which should clean up the look a little. Still vintage, but thankfully ditching those monstrous club feet indicators and brake light.

Also after 1 long journey to re-locate the bike I have ditched the cafe bars and am going back to the euro ones.. I really don't know how people can deal with standard peg locations and drop bars, or maybe my height is the issue. Too much kneeing myself in the face!

Anyway, will keep you guys posted on the bike's return. Hopefully the new engine means I can drive to a more picturesque place and get some shots of her to add to the last ones

[scrichton]

Finally she is back on the road!

Turn out every valve guide was cracked. The mechanic thinks whoever had "rebuilt" or I would better term "#$%*ed" the engine, had torqued the head down to 3 times the required amount and cracked every valve guide. So in the end a top end rebuild turned into a head recondition and top end build. So if I ever meet the guy or his ham fisted pliers he used for removing the stem seals will no doubt get a piece of my mind.

So now onto a cautious break in period and then onto the clutch to get rid of the idle rattle.

If anyone knows a good thread or link to a supplier for what you need to do to minimise it that would be really appreciated.

1 more cb550 lives again to tell it's tale now   

Thanks again for all the assistance.
Steven
 

[crazypj]

Nope, not possible, he's guessing you know less than him.
Torquing head x3 spec will snap studs but can't do anything to guides.
More likely rocker cover wasn't fitted with rubber bands to hold up rockers, bent valve tops and cracked guides
were the guides cracked where the wire goes around them?
 It's common when guides are driven too deep