Topic: VIN plate replacement

[The other Derek]

Sorry VTC, I don't recall. 

This is what I used to re-affix my vin plate:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#91654a074/=s5xl8h

[Free Booter]

So anyone want to tell me what the cost of the vin plates were?

[Stev-o]

So anyone want to tell me what the cost of the vin plates were?

$30

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-Data-PLATE-CB750-Four-K0-K1-K2-1969-1970-1971-1972-1973-ID-TAG-Typenschild-/131293055963?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e91ad0bdb

[SohRon]

I know I'm dredging up an old thread, but I just got my new VIN plate and wanted to share. Here's the link to the on-line store:

http://www.khneisser.ch/products/77/detail/HONDA-VIN-PLATE-USA-Version


The basic price for the tag is $30, but it doesn't include any of the weights, build date or VIN. They offer an engraving service that I opted into for an additional $11, bringing the total to $41 for the plate. I think it came out looking pretty good



And they sent these little screw-rivets to attach it with just like was done originally. Even sent an extra. Cool!



The only beef I would have (if I had one) is that, to my calibrated eyeball (since I don't have a mic here)
the original plate appears to be approximately two - three mils thick (.002 - .003"), whereas the new plate weighs in at something closer to eight to ten mils (,008 - .010"). I don't know if this will present any problems bending it to fit the frame, but we'll see!

They didn't require me to send in anything; I filled out the on-line form and got my tag in six days.

[calj737]

 I've used PVC tubing of the same diameter of the neck. Point lengthwise, place vin plate in between and use a clamp to slowly squeeze the tubing together. You can insure a crease-free rounding of the plate and then install rivets.

[grcamna2]

Has anyone tried those rivets that 'The other Derek' used? & how did they work w/ similar to orig. size ?

[Stev-o]

Hey Ron - thanks for the update, I think it looks good.  I bought one but I don't believe they had the engraving service back then. I couldn't find someone local to do it, never installed it and sold the K5 when I bought my Z1.  Good to know that they are now engraving.

[SohRon]

Cal, good tip for bending the plate; I'll have to give it a try.

GC, I haven't seen those "screws". Hopefully these that came with the plate will do the trick!

Stev-o, thanks for the link. I'm actually going to have a second plate made up by a different company that says they can provide reverse stamping, which is how the ID number was originally applied to the plate. When I get it I'll do another post with the details.

[edwardmorris]

@sohron, look here for details http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126735.msg1596493#msg1596493

I think its the same guy khniesser, he does good work. The rivets he sent are the correct size, drop in replacement.

@gcramma2 I have a few that @the other derek sent me, those will require drilling as their OD is slightly larger, but they look a LOT more sturdy IMHO.

[grcamna2]

edwardmorris,
I just PM'd 'The other Derek' and if I don't hear from him after a while I could use 4) rivets because I have a vin plate & a 'tune-up spec' plate on a little 81' 125 I'm PCing & when you say the rivets "OD is slightly larger" that'll work good for me as the plate has a bigger hole in it now from removing it..

                                                    Thanks, grcamna2 

[Garage_guy_chris]

Thanks for another good thread. I too need to order a replacement for my mangled original.

[SohRon]

Here's a more direct link to the site; it's their home page rather than going through ebay:

http://www.khneisser.ch/products/77/detail/HONDA-VIN-PLATE-USA-Version

Lots of different plates available

[edwardmorris]

Here's a more direct link to the site; it's their home page rather than going through ebay:

http://www.khneisser.ch/products/77/detail/HONDA-VIN-PLATE-USA-Version

Lots of different plates available

Yep. I wish he'd considered becoming a sponsor here, but oh well, he's easy to deal with directly as it is so no biggie.

[ascanio1]

I need help from the more experts forum members.

My VIN plate is glued, not riveted.
My engine number is engraved on a plate (itself soldered) and not directly on the case.
I attach images.

My frame/engine numbers don't match (1972/1974) and this was not mentioned in the listing of a "Beautiful and original CB750Four K3". While this is not a big deal as frame/engine are contemporary, I still opened a dispute case against the seller for misrepresenting the listing.

A suspect surfaced in my mind after reading this thread: if the frame numbers on the VIN plate, themselves, can be faked then that would not be a mere misrepresentation but negligence, at best, if not outright fraud. Misrepresentation, negligence and fraud have different legal consequences and different solutions. The distinction depends on the origin of the frame and the intention of the seller.

If the frame was used to build the original bike and then restored/repaired with non matching original parts or non original parts (even an engine) this makes it a badly restored original bike and a misrepresented listing/item.

If the frame itself was not originally used to build the bike but was, for example, a spare, a NOS, a reproduction, etc, which was used subsequently as a base upon which original and non original parts were installed then, at best, it is a replica. If the seller was not aware of it, then it would be negligence to list it as an original. If the seller was aware of it, then it would be a fraud to list it as an original.

In practical terms and as far as riding pleasure are concerned there is no difference between a replica and an original and, in fact, replicas are often better vehicles: E-Type Jaguar, Ferrari 333 SP, etc. So my help request is purely technical/legal.

How was the frame VIN plate originally mounted: rivets or glue?
How was the engine number engraved: directly on the case or on a plate which itself was then soldered to the case?
Can anyone detect any details which I should look into?

Honda US is not very helpful and I am still waiting for an official answer.
   

[grcamna2]

ascanio1,
What bike is it you have,early CB750? I would suspect that the Vin. plate is rivets only w/o glue..
The Vin. plate is only supposed to be a second set of imprinted,stamped original numbers that are also stamped directly into the frame steering head tube by the Honda factory right next to the Vin. plate.The engine numbers are also stamped/etched in originally by Honda at the factory.

[ascanio1]

Thanks, it's a CB750 K3 (?).

As you think, also I imagined that the VIN plate would be riveted rather than glued. That, plus the mismatching frame/engine = doubts. Later today I'll check if there are other etchings into the frame.

What about the engine number? It is engraved on a plate which, itself, is soldered to the engine case.

[mystic_1]

The engine numbers and the frame numbers never match.

Everything in your photos look completely stock to me in every way.

Here's what the engine cases look like before the engine number is stamped into it:

[ascanio1]

Thanks Mystic,

So the VIN plate was glued and not riveted in the US?

Frame/engine may not match number wise but must match year wise, right? My frame is a K3 but my engine is a K4. This is what I meant.

As far as you know, can you find also replacement engine number plates, on the internet?

[Stev-o]

So the VIN plate was glued and not riveted in the US?

Frame/engine may not match number wise but must match year wise, right? My frame is a K3 but my engine is a K4. This is what I meant.

As far as you know, can you find also replacement engine number plates, on the internet?

Hey Tom

The frame VIN plates were not glued.

There is not an engine VIN plate, the number was stamped into the aluminum boss on the case.

[MoMo]

The steering neck plate looks altered, the engine ID method is normal, numbers never matched.  The frame number on the ID plate should be stamped on the steering neck opposite side-if the number is not there something was done.  Frame replace or stolen about the only two things that come to my mind....Larry

[ascanio1]

I was wrong. Apologies for raising the issue.

In the original image (taken months ago) the frame plate appears to be glued but I just double checked and it is riveted. On the opposite side the same number is engraved on the frame itself.

I asked Honda which is the engine number which matches my frame but I am still waiting for an answer. A forum member noticed that the frame is a K3 while the engine is a K4.

I'm glad that I was wrong about the frame number plate.

[madmtnmotors]

The few VIN plates I have dealt with were both riveted and glued. The originals are very thin and difficult to remove without damage (such as prepping the frame for paint or powdercoat). I find it easier to mask them for painting.

[mystic_1]

ascanio1,

Given your month of manufacture of November, it's entirely possible your 1972-production frame was fitted with a 1973 engine from the factory.  I find this plausible however I may be wrong.  I do know that a lot of the early engines had to be replaced under warranty, so this may account for that.

I can see scratches on around the lower rivet of the frame's number plate and around the edges.  I was assuming that you did this in you explorations since they look like fresh scratches.  The rivets heads looks pretty rusty so I would guess they've not been disturbed.

I can also see surface marks on the frame neck and the VIN plate near the upper left corner that match, probably from the clutch cable rubbing during operation.  This also suggests to me that the plate has been there for years.

According to the following chart, the 1973 model series was not released until February 1973:
http://www.hondachopper.com/engine/engine_timeline/timeline.html

As Stev-o said the engine number is stamped into a boss that's integral to the engine case, there is no separate plate, and yours looks pretty original to me.

[ascanio1]

Thanks Mystic,

Given your month of manufacture of November, it's entirely possible your 1972-production frame was fitted with a 1973 engine from the factory.  I find this plausible however I may be wrong.  I do know that a lot of the early engines had to be replaced under warranty, so this may account for that.

Ekpent suggested that the engine is not K3 (1973) but K4 (1974). http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=143700.msg1633685#msg1633685 and http://www.sohc4.net/cb750k-serial-numbers/

But I would be really glad if I were to be wrong again and it were a K3 engine, as you say. It would be great! I would be happy to apologize to the seller for disputing the transaction.

[mystic_1]

No, you're right CB750-23xxxxx would be a K4 motor.  Sorry I must have read the chart wrong earlier.  That's what I get for posting while drinking my first cup of coffee in the morning 

Did you ever check the left side of the steering head for the stamped frame number?  This will confirm whether the frame's VIN plate is correct.

Assuming that it is, it's possible that the engine was replaced at some point in the distant past and the seller was unaware of this.  Still, you are correct when you said:

If the seller was not aware of it, then it would be negligence to list it as an original.

Given the availability of the engine and frame number charts, the seller probably shouldn't have listed it as "original" as evidence suggests that the engine is not the one that originally came with the frame.

As you said though, this only matters if you're going for a concourse restoration and the value of a "matching numbers" vehicle.

mystic_1