Topic: Problem after installing elec. ignition (550f)

[ieism]

I changed to electronic ignition this week, and my bike ran perfect ..........Untill i put it away for a night.    next day I started it it wouldn't rev, and it ran on 2 cylinders (2 & 3 the ones on the outside).
I rechecked my timing (static). Didn't work.
I changed the sparkplugs, and cleaned the carbs and rechecked the timing again, and than it ran on all fours again. For 5 minutes 
Today i adjusted the timing once more, and it ran on four cylinders again for 5 minutes. The moment i build up the revs under load, it goes bad.

I don't have a strobe, and all the local bikeshops refuse to help me because it's "an old bike". Somehow i think the timing is right when i first set it, but changes after revving the engine.
I think i'm missing something simple, and i refuse to give up and go back to my old ignition.

Here's a link to the ignition installation guide:  http://www.honda4.nl/ontsteking/eo/Ignition%20En%20rev%20b.pdf

[smashme33]

 What ohm coils do you have...It mentions that there is another rotor available with a different contact angle, and it appears that it depends on the coils(3k or 5k).

[Jay B]

You didn't say what ignition you have, maybe a Dyna? Kind of sounds like you might have a bad Hall Effect Sensor (Triggering unit) Sometimes they will work till warmed up then cut out. The 5 minute thing points to that anyway.

[ieism]

Thanks for the replies guys.
But............ it ran great when I first installed it. i drove it for more than 150 miles that day. So i suppose that kind of rules out having the wrong rotor doesn't it?

I'm going to change the yellow and blue wires to check if it runs on the other cylinders. That would rule out a single bad Hall Effects Sensor. If that's the case i'll install the old ignition again, and demand a new unit (i do have a years warranty on it ).
I'll keep you posted.

edit:
i changed back to the old ignition, and that didn't change anything. It still runs on 2 cyliinders when i rev it above 3k and stays that way untill I either pull one of the plugcaps of the offending cylinders, or undo the wires from the ignition. This is starting to make less sense to me every hour, so please tell me what you think.
Could it be something else, or am I just really bad at setting the timing? I did everything by the book.

[TwoTired]

I started it it wouldn't rev, and it ran on 2 cylinders (2 & 3 the ones on the outside).

Problem solving by spreading confusion, eh?      Cylinders are numbered from left to right 1-2-3-4.  Which ones are on the outside?

I changed the sparkplugs,and than it ran on all fours again. For 5 minutes 

Describe your spark plug deposits.  ( black and sooty?)

Are you fouling spark plugs in 5 minutes of run time?

Describe your bike, and any modifications to it from stock; exhaust, air filters, carb work, etc.

If your spark plug insulators are building up carbon and shorting out,  PJ says you can take a blow torch to them to clean them.  I haven't tried that yet, but it make perfect sense.

Cheers,
 

[ieism]

Oops , sorry. I meant 2 & 3 DIDN'T run.  1 and 4 are the ones on the outside, and they do run.

Those plugs are definitely black and sooty. But i'm not sure if i'm actually fouling them in 5 minutes, i only took them out once and they looked like this:
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/3.html  But that was after that 150 mile ride.

My bike is completely stock, except for an aftermarket exhaust that has been on there for 10 years now, and the electronic ignition.

I saw a guy do that, blowtorching his plugs, it seemed to work so i'll try that too. But cleaning my plugs won't really solve the problem right?. Putting new plugs in didn't solve it either.

Thanks for trying to help a newbie.

[TwoTired]

Okay you are running too rich, and possibly fouling plugs.   Is your air filter clean?  Nice and white or dark grey?

Cleaning the plugs might get them to fire again.  Running too rich is likely a carburation or air filtration issue.

Do all the plugs show the same type of deposit condition?

What are your plug numbers, gap setting?

What are your idle air bleed screws set at?

Have your carbs ever been worked on?

Are they the original 069A carbs?  (stamped on carb body)

Cheers,

[ieism]

i agree it's running rich, couldn't that be a timing isue as well?
The strange thing is that I didn't change anything on the carbs or airfilter, so that make me suspect the ignition. Also it fouls the plugs on two cylinders only. In fact it will happily iddle on only 1 and 4.
I use D7EA plugs and have not touched the gaps. If i put it away and start it up an hour later, it iddles on four cylinders again without pulling the plugs.
The carbs are original and have never been changed. I did take them off and clean the bowls and mainjet, they were already very clean. Replaced o-rings too. 

You see this is what makes me suspect the timing. Everything else is unchanged and checked. The timing at iddle seems allright, but revving it to 2500 rpm or more will cause it to sputter and kills cylinders 2 & 3 in a minute.

[dillwad]

I had a problem like this on my XS 650 when i went to electronic ignition
Turned out to be crappy connectors on the one side going to the coil.    In my case it would run great then start fouling the one side.
some times it would run for a day or two great other times it would fire up bet then chug down the street on one cylinder
when i put it together i would have sworn the connectors where good 
But they were loose
god luck

[scondon]

Somehow i think the timing is right when i first set it, but changes after revving the engine.
I think i'm missing something simple, and i refuse to give up and go back to my old ignition.

You see this is what makes me suspect the timing. Everything else is unchanged and checked. The timing at iddle seems allright, but revving it to 2500 rpm or more will cause it to sputter and kills cylinders 2 & 3 in a minute.

Is your spark advancer(behind the ignition plate) clean and operating properly?

[TwoTired]

i agree it's running rich, couldn't that be a timing isue as well?

Seems unlikely for the severity conditions you are reporting.
Have you carefully examined the spark plug wires for cracks in the insulation, including at the body of the coil?  Looked at those running in the dark?  Do you get a lighting show?

Soot means ignition was started for the power stroke, but was not completed.  What do you suppose started combustion?

The strange thing is that I didn't change anything on the carbs or airfilter, so that make me suspect the ignition. Also it fouls the plugs on two cylinders only. In fact it will happily iddle on only 1 and 4.

You still haven't told us about 1&4 plug condition.  Soot there too?  Just not quite as bad?

You have four individual carbs.  Are they synchronized?  What if 2&3 had slides open farther than 1&4?  These would run too rich at idle to support combustion while 1&4 do the firing.  Symptoms would change after cylinder warm up.

I use D7EA plugs and have not touched the gaps.

Probably not a current issue. But, the gaps should always be checked before installation.  Normal procedure.

The carbs are original and have never been changed. I did take them off and clean the bowls and mainjet, they were already very clean. Replaced o-rings too. 

Okay, the carbs have been rebuilt. Were the slides removed?  Were the carbs synchronized after installation?
Did you check the emulsion tubes behind the main jet?  Was the air jet and the passagway to the emulsion tube clear?
Did you use the correct size orings on the mains?  Are these sealing correctly?
Did you put back the spring clips holding the main jets in?  Are the main jets still in place on 2&3?
Are all the choke plates fully opening at each carb?

You see this is what makes me suspect the timing. Everything else is unchanged and checked. The timing at iddle seems allright, but revving it to 2500 rpm or more will cause it to sputter and kills cylinders 2 & 3 in a minute.

There's a clue I suppose.  Above idle, the throttle valve becomes active and dominates mixture.  Why is 2&3 different than 1&4?

Okay, let it run on 1&4 for 15-30 seconds, then hit the kill switch.  Pull all the spark plugs, note their conditions.  Soot where?  Any wet with liquid gas?

You could have a comedy of errors, I suppose.  Intake leaks on 1&4 and a dirty, clogged air filter would make only 2&3 run too rich.  But, I can only suggest checking these things.

I suggest instead of choosing a cause and finding supportive evidence for it, you find evidence that leads you to a cause.  How certain are you of your assumptions?

Best of luck!

[ieism]

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll have to take a day of work this week and do a complete check-up. It's hard to troubleshoot a bike you don't know well, so i suppose i'll just have to put more time in .
In reply to some off your questions:

"Is your spark advancer(behind the ignition plate) clean and operating properly?"
--Yes.

"Have you carefully examined the spark plug wires for cracks in the insulation, including at the body of the coil?  Looked at those running in the dark?  Do you get a lighting show?   "
--No, I had not thought of that. I'll check it out as soon as I can.

"You still haven't told us about 1&4 plug condition.  Soot there too?  Just not quite as bad?"
--1 & 4 looked pretty good. No soot. They looked almost the same as this: http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/11.html

"Okay, the carbs have been rebuilt. Were the slides removed? "
--No, i left the slides in.

"Were the carbs synchronized after installation?"
--Only bench synced, as I don't have vacuum meter (i plan to get one this week).

"Did you check the emulsion tubes behind the main jet?  Was the air jet and the passagway to the emulsion tube clear?"
--Yes, looked perfect. The carbs looked almost like new on the inside.
 
Did you use the correct size orings on the mains?  Are these sealing correctly?
--"Yes. i used NOS Honda o-rings. They sealed good. Better than the old ones, more flexible.

"Did you put back the spring clips holding the main jets in?  Are the main jets still in place on 2&3?"
--Absolutely.



"Are all the choke plates fully opening at each carb?"
--Yes.

"There's a clue I suppose.  Above idle, the throttle valve becomes active and dominates mixture.  Why is 2&3 different than 1&4?
Okay, let it run on 1&4 for 15-30 seconds, then hit the kill switch.  Pull all the spark plugs, note their conditions.  Soot where?  Any wet with liquid gas?
You could have a comedy of errors, I suppose. "
--You're right, that's a clue. (but it was easier to blame the new ignition when blinded with anger )

"Intake leaks on 1&4 and a dirty, clogged air filter would make only 2&3 run too rich.  But, I can only suggest checking these things."
--I'm pretty sure that i have no leaks, i've also replaced the rubbers on both sides of the carbs. the airfilter i cleaned with compressed air. But I can get a new one just to make sure.

"I suggest instead of choosing a cause and finding supportive evidence for it, you find evidence that leads you to a cause.  How certain are you of your assumptions?"
--Not that certain at all. You've been a great help though. I'm buying some more tools and parts this week and intend to do a complete check.

Ivar

[ieism]

Update........

I've bought a timing light and checked the ignition again. The timing is right and it advances too. When it runs on two cylinders there is no spark, there is no current going trough the wires either. This made me suspect the coils so i took them to a shop who tested them with a little machine, the coils were ok on the machine. They don't overheat either.
While taking the coils off, i did notice a wire loose. The black/white, yellow and blue wires to the coils are connected. Were those come out of the loom, there is a loose black wire (my finger points at it).
Anybody know what this should connect to, i think this might be the problem? I tried looking at a wiringdiagram, but there are 20 black wires on there and i can't make any sense out of it.

[crazypj]

All black wires on Honda's are live when ignition is on, its probably a spare.( indicator buzzer, horn???)
 I'd say you have a loose solder joint on ignition or a component that is heating up and breaking contact when hot.
Its no unknown for this to happen,the CB400 T had a major issue, wouldnt run when hot, Honda changed thousands of generators under warranty.
Get in touch with the manufacturer
PJ

[ieism]

I'm going to try driving it to a specialist dealer tomorrow. I hope it doesn't run on two cylinders the whole trip (35 miles), i'll just let it cool down a lot. 

[ieism]

Well I've solved it. I ran new wires straight from the ignition to the coils, and this solved everything. I think there must be a kink or break in one of the original cables.
Thanks for the help anyhow .

[bryanj]

morenlikely your kill switch has grotty contacts