Author Topic: For the love of god electric help Please!  (Read 3168 times)

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Offline aggiepike

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For the love of god electric help Please!
« on: January 19, 2013, 09:26:10 PM »
Had this problem the other day and tried to figure it out today but couldn't. I've read through most of the electric FAQ's and helps but still don't know. Let me know what you think please.

 I went to start up my bike by pushing my starter button and it labored a little bit, but did turn over.  So I pushed it again bike turned over and all of a sudden there was a pop and a puff of smoke. So I waited a minute for the smoke to clear then pushed the button again.  then just the starter spun but is not engaging and turning the motor over. Well figured if the starter button isn't going to work I'll just kick it and go. So kicked it and it started up and away I went. Well road about 15 minutes then it started running very poor so went home and that was it.

I've found my bike is not charging and there is a drain somewhere on it. Can this starter issue be the cause of it all? Or am I looking for more than one issue?

Any help/suggestions is greatly appreciated.

Richard
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline phil71

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 09:31:49 PM »
The starter is probably the symptom. Cranking the bike with low voltage can burn a starter up pretty good.
There are tons of testing procedures on this site if you search, but keep this in mind.. stators rarely fail, and regulators and rectifiers do very easily. I'd just buy a solid state one. There are lots of direct replacements, and they work a metric #$%*load better than the original did even when new.

Offline scottly

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 09:36:00 PM »
then just the starter spun but is not engaging and turning the motor over.
Any help/suggestions is greatly appreciated.

Richard
This sounds like the rotor has come loose from the crankshaft. The starter is coupled to the rotor through the starter clutch. The rotor is behind the alternator cover on the left side of the motor.
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Offline nccb

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 04:33:22 AM »
could one of the wires that runs behind the alternator cover have become damaged?  I had a hell of a time getting mine to stay put when putting the cover back on and could see how the lining could get cut.

Offline Matthew

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 05:35:50 AM »
Well I am new but have been working with my uncle Ken( bollingball) with a 78 750 he just gave me. I would start by putting the battery on the correct type charger and if it takes water top it off. He tells me it has to be fully charged to test it. Then it looks like you need to do two thing check the charging system and I don't know how but there are lots of writes here on that. I have been reading for days and have not made a dent on all the great information here. Then see what is draining it. Can you use a meter? and uncle Ken says what kind of bike and year is helpfull.
Matt

Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 05:42:16 AM »
Yes , the wires from the stator could have gotten chaffed!
READ battery power this way= 1. Make sure battery is fully charged!!
2.Start bike (let it warmup) run RPMs to about 3k 3.5k ,then read power at the battery post while holding at 3+k RPMs. You should have  about 14.5 volts, this will tell you whether or not your charging system is working.  Here is another site with CB750 T/ and TECH info that might help!

http://hondachopper.com/

Seen Scotty McCreery running around Garner???

Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 07:40:11 AM »
The starter is probably the symptom. Cranking the bike with low voltage can burn a starter up pretty good.
There are tons of testing procedures on this site if you search, but keep this in mind.. stators rarely fail, and regulators and rectifiers do very easily. I'd just buy a solid state one. There are lots of direct replacements, and they work a metric #$%*load better than the original did even when new.

I was thinking that it may be the starter but it turns over w/ a push of the button so I don't know. I'll find out soon enought hopefully.

I was looking at those as well. I'd like to keep the spend down and not replace anything I don't have to, but we will see. I saw some of the budget homemades on here and may go that route if I find that is the issue. Anyone know of any good "plug and play" rectifiers they'd recommend?

thanks,
richard
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 07:48:10 AM »
Should have included this in the first post. The bike is a 1971.

Well pullled all the left side covers off and it appears to be alright. No broken/cut/chaffed wires, rotor is still connected as far as I can tell. I even hooked the battery up and hit the starter button and can see the starter gear spin so don't think it's that. 

Next thing is to try the recommended test of starting and revving. I don't have a tach on it so I'll "earball" it w/ the rev's unless anyone has suggestions on that. After the charging test what next?

Thanks for all the help.

Richard
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline nccb

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 08:09:18 AM »
Seen Scotty McCreery running around Garner???

Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Just saw that. I'm sure he is haunting the local Bojangles.  I honestly hope to never see him haha

Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 11:10:46 AM »
Im on a phone so its tough to libkbut go to electric faq and run thru the charging system tests there after that live battery test.
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Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 11:24:14 AM »
Tested it and found that the bike isn't charging as suspected.

Fully charged battery reading not hooked to bike:
13.5

Battery hooked  to bike and NOT running:
12.15

Headlight off, Battery on running bike:
12.15-12.16

Headlight off, Battery on Rev'd engine:
12.19

Low beam, Battery on runnign bike:
12.00

High beam, Battery on rev'd engine:
11.96

Also found that the second position on the ignition switch is not functioning now. Not sure when this came about but if I turn the key to that position and try to start the bike it will not. Move it back to first position and it fires right up.

What do you guys think?

Richad
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline phil71

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 12:54:55 PM »
2nd position is tail light only, for when you're stuck on the side of the road at night.
There is no free fix for your charging problem.

Offline alancop

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 01:25:17 PM »
I think it's time you bite the bullet and invest in a solid state rectifier/regulator, everyone has them and they are just about $100. If that doesn't fix your starter problem, I would guess as said above, that you fried it.
It's almost twice as old as me, I don't know how the hell it works!

Offline scottly

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 05:58:22 PM »

 I went to start up my bike by pushing my starter button and it labored a little bit, but did turn over.  So I pushed it again bike turned over and all of a sudden there was a pop and a puff of smoke. So I waited a minute for the smoke to clear then pushed the button again.  then just the starter spun but is not engaging and turning the motor over.
Where did the puff of smoke come from? The exhaust, or from the area on the left side where the battery is?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 06:14:31 PM »
2nd position is tail light only, for when you're stuck on the side of the road at night.
There is no free fix for your charging problem.

Jez feel kinda stupid on that one. Thanks for the help.
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2013, 06:19:11 PM »

 I went to start up my bike by pushing my starter button and it labored a little bit, but did turn over.  So I pushed it again bike turned over and all of a sudden there was a pop and a puff of smoke. So I waited a minute for the smoke to clear then pushed the button again.  then just the starter spun but is not engaging and turning the motor over.
Where did the puff of smoke come from? The exhaust, or from the area on the left side where the battery is?

Definately from under the left side and not the exhaust. May be new to this but guarantee I'd know that one.

That shine any light?

Thanks,
Richard
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline scottly

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2013, 06:25:31 PM »

Definately from under the left side and not the exhaust. May be new to this but guarantee I'd know that one.

That shine any light?

Thanks,
Richard
I suspect you had the battery hooked up back-wards and let the magic smoke out of the rectifier.  :( Look for melted wires on the left side near the battery.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 10:22:56 PM »

Definately from under the left side and not the exhaust. May be new to this but guarantee I'd know that one.

That shine any light?

Thanks,
Richard
I suspect you had the battery hooked up back-wards and let the magic smoke out of the rectifier.  :( Look for melted wires on the left side near the battery.

What he said ^^^...

Look for the Red/White wire, specifically. It is connected between the battery and the rectifier (+) in the white plug that goes to the rectifier. If you have an ohmmeter (or can borrow one), go to the FAQ section, there's a tutorial there on how to test your rectifier.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2013, 09:00:04 AM »

Definately from under the left side and not the exhaust. May be new to this but guarantee I'd know that one.

That shine any light?

Thanks,
Richard
I suspect you had the battery hooked up back-wards and let the magic smoke out of the rectifier.  :( Look for melted wires on the left side near the battery.

What he said ^^^...

Look for the Red/White wire, specifically. It is connected between the battery and the rectifier (+) in the white plug that goes to the rectifier. If you have an ohmmeter (or can borrow one), go to the FAQ section, there's a tutorial there on how to test your rectifier.

Good deal I'll do that later today and see what I can find. Will let you guys know. 

Thanks for the help you guys.

Richard
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline XLerate

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 09:10:07 AM »
Not knowing the history of the bike or of work performed, or whether it came from a bike museum or got pulled out of a landfill, some basic suggestions to give you a fighting chance.

First I'd inspect and clean all wires at battery and charging looking for any sign of corrosion. Oftentimes a wire at battery lug connection may look okay at first glance but peeling back some insulation reveals ugly green gunge infests all the wire strands. Replacement is the only cure.

With a fully charged battery connect a meter between disconnected battery ground wire and clean bare metal chassis ground, with switch off. Check for voltage flow and if any voltage is shown then you have an IOD, Ignition Off Draw, which is sapping power while bike is shut off. That means there's a short somewhere or a failed component.

Many switches can be dismantled to clean the copper contacts to restore life. Also closely inspect switch electrical connections, which are prone to failure.

Starter lead wire connections can cause plenty of problems just from a little corrosion or loose terminals. Also on wires, inspect closely where terminals are attached to see that all strands of wire are still in good shape. Sometimes a wire will look okay but close inspection reveals that most of the wire strands are broken through right at terminal crimp.

In many years of electrical troubleshooting and repairs I've found that way over 50% of 'electrical problems' are actually Ground problems, usually caused by corrosion. Best to disconnect and clean to bare metal on every ground connection on the bike if you want it fail safe for happy rides.

On the battery, some will take a surface charge and appear to be just fine and dandy when in fact they won't hold a deep charge. Charge battery, then put some load on it and see how well it maintains its voltage.

Basic timing issues, plugs and fuel delivery will all effect starting. I'd start on that by checking all plugs, then timing to see what's up there.

EDIT to add: sometimes a combination of faulty switch, faulty start pushbutton, bad wiring, ground faults, weak battery etc. can all occur at once like lemmings all jumping off the cliff together. That final 'one too many' is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Therefore I wouldn't stop troubleshooting just because you manage to get bike running. As long as you've got your sleeves rolled up go and check all the basics so you know right where you're at.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 09:17:19 AM by XLerate »

Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2013, 08:04:22 AM »
Not knowing the history of the bike or of work performed, or whether it came from a bike museum or got pulled out of a landfill, some basic suggestions to give you a fighting chance.

First I'd inspect and clean all wires at battery and charging looking for any sign of corrosion. Oftentimes a wire at battery lug connection may look okay at first glance but peeling back some insulation reveals ugly green gunge infests all the wire strands. Replacement is the only cure.

With a fully charged battery connect a meter between disconnected battery ground wire and clean bare metal chassis ground, with switch off. Check for voltage flow and if any voltage is shown then you have an IOD, Ignition Off Draw, which is sapping power while bike is shut off. That means there's a short somewhere or a failed component.

Many switches can be dismantled to clean the copper contacts to restore life. Also closely inspect switch electrical connections, which are prone to failure.

Starter lead wire connections can cause plenty of problems just from a little corrosion or loose terminals. Also on wires, inspect closely where terminals are attached to see that all strands of wire are still in good shape. Sometimes a wire will look okay but close inspection reveals that most of the wire strands are broken through right at terminal crimp.

In many years of electrical troubleshooting and repairs I've found that way over 50% of 'electrical problems' are actually Ground problems, usually caused by corrosion. Best to disconnect and clean to bare metal on every ground connection on the bike if you want it fail safe for happy rides.

On the battery, some will take a surface charge and appear to be just fine and dandy when in fact they won't hold a deep charge. Charge battery, then put some load on it and see how well it maintains its voltage.

Basic timing issues, plugs and fuel delivery will all effect starting. I'd start on that by checking all plugs, then timing to see what's up there.

EDIT to add: sometimes a combination of faulty switch, faulty start pushbutton, bad wiring, ground faults, weak battery etc. can all occur at once like lemmings all jumping off the cliff together. That final 'one too many' is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Therefore I wouldn't stop troubleshooting just because you manage to get bike running. As long as you've got your sleeves rolled up go and check all the basics so you know right where you're at.

Was able to work on it a little last night. Started cleaing all the connectors. Hopefully I'll get more done today. Thanks for the help and pointers. Hopefully this will clear up soon.

Question for anyone.

Are the rectifiers from Oregon Motorcycle Parts solid state or are the just quality replacements of the originals? Figure someone here will know.

Richard
K1 CB750 (836)

Offline iron_worker

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 08:37:39 AM »
I bought my regulator and rectifier from there and am very happy with the products so far. They've been working flawlessly for a couple years now and seemed to be a quality product.

Also, read through the FAQ section on that website. Some very helpful tips for testing your charging system to figure out what exactly is going wrong.

Thanks for bring that up. I forgot what website that was and had been looking for it without success. lol

IW

Offline aggiepike

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 07:33:52 AM »
First off thanks for all the help guys, man this site is great! I finally figured it out. Bad rectifier like you guys said.  I've ordered one from OMP and hopefully I'll get it on Saturday.

I'm still a little confused on the starter issue I have though. Maybe I'm missing something but I wouldn't think a bad rectifier would cause my starter to just spin over when the button is hit like it does. I'm thinking I may just unplug it and be done w/ it since mine kicks after 2-3. Guess I'll know more once I get the new rectifier on.

Anyone have $.02 they'd like to throw in on this?
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Offline alancop

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2013, 07:39:34 AM »
If they are continuously engaging starters, I have no clue  but if they are like the starters on a car, the rotational torque of the motor spinning up causes the gear to push out and mesh with the flywheel, starting the engine, however, If the starter doesn't spin fast enough it won't engage the flywheel.
It's almost twice as old as me, I don't know how the hell it works!

Offline Bodi

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Re: For the love of god electric help Please!
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2013, 12:30:11 PM »
The starter is engaged via a one-way clutch onto the primary shaft - starter can turn the engine but engine doesn't turn the starter (unless you turn the crankshaft "backwards"). If the starter motor turns and the engine does not turn, either the one-way clutch is broken or the planetary geartrain inside the starter motor is broken. A lot of earlier Hondas had starter motors with chain drive to the engine (and a chain that could break), I don't believe any of the fours do. But I'm old and forgetful.