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Offline 74750k4

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Regulators and Rectifiers
« on: January 28, 2013, 11:00:52 AM »
Oregon Motorcycles sells some great parts. I still have their regulator and rectifier on my 74' (soon to be upgraded).

For the more adventurous, there are some very high tech, and inexpensive parts now to upgrade to the latest technology. Super accurate, and efficient. Currrently using on my 71' and am quite happy with the rock solid performance of these two parts.

The Rectifier is the IXYS FUS45,  a super efficient Schottky 3 phase bridge in a small package.
The Regulator is the ST Microlectronics L9911 extremely tight regulation, and a fault lamp circuit, and relay circuit are also included if you want to use.
I'm using the EarthX Lithium Iron battery as well. Unfortunately that part is NOT cheap, but very light weight, and small.

Here's a link to both parts at Digikey. The FUS45 is in very short supply.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&keywords=fus45&x=11&y=16&cur=USD


http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=l9911i&x=19&y=13




Offline dave500

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 11:34:06 AM »
i use a rectifier from a later permanant magnet alternator and the bosch re57 regulator=bullet proof,the regs about 30 bucks.



i never have voltage trouble,itll charge idling with the headlight off.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 11:39:23 AM by dave500 »

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 07:39:04 PM »
Nice Dave. Great to have regulation, and charge at idle. Even better to have regulation and charge at idle with the headlight on...

Here's an idea of how small these amazing parts are.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 08:35:31 PM »
I'm adventurous!

So, I've always assumed one could improve the efficiency of our regulator/charging circuits by upgrading the electronics.  But I wasn't sure exactly how this would work (my formal education is in Mechanical Engineering... not Electrical, so I'm a little light in that area).

Are these assumptions correct?
1. I can get more power out of my alternator by using a more efficient (lower voltage drop) bridge rectifier, due to the slightly increased output voltage.
2. and... same thing with the circuit that controls the voltage to the field coil... by reducing it's power consumption (no relay or power resistor), and only powering the  field coil with just enough voltage as required to meet load requirements?
3. Theoretically, 1 & 2 combined should actually increase the BHP of my bike (although maybe not by any significant amount.)

I guess the Soft-Start feature helps with starting the engine by sending less voltage to the field coil (or modulating it)... interesting.

So how would you wire the inputs/outputs to the ECU?  Does that need to provide a frequency to the L9911?  I assume it also uses this input to determine what the output voltage should be?
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
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Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 10:19:27 PM »


You're right on all accounts. Not so sure on the soft start, but I think that is more of a protective feature. I know that LRC (Load Response Control) is smoothing out the peaks, and valleys created when various loads are turned on/off. The soft start is a gradual response (rather than slamming on/off) to an increased load, or higher RPM, I do believe. This also helps reduce noise in the line, not important in a motorcycle, but quiet car interiors playing low level music, could see improvements. The feature I am most interested in is the "no battery operation" I need more info. Another nice thing is that power can be left on to the IC from the battery, and it will not drain the battery at keyswitch off, even with the field coil still connected. In our bikes the power is switched on/off to the regulator/field coil through the black wire from the key switch, otherwise the battery would drain through the white wire to the field coil. This is how the regulator senses the system voltage, so you get the voltage drop from the + terminal of the battery, to the main key switch, and then back to the VR. A poor way to measure the battery voltage! Now it will sense right off the + terminal of the battery. Tighter regulation. There are 3 grades of L9911... L9911I has the tightest regulation curve. You may notice when you rev your bike the headlight gets a bit brighter. You will not see that very much at all using this system. The voltage is so tightly controlled. Pretty much 14.1V-14.3 V continuously unless you use a 90-100 watt (off-road only) halogen bulb with seriously upgraded wiring, and relays!
The other nice fault finding feature is the stator monitoring line. Just pick one of the 3 stator yellow wires and connect. One more way to protect the alternator/system.

The ECU connection is entirely optional. You do not need to use it, or worry about it. For cars that can monitor that, you could connect.
The lamp circuit works, and I have an LED connected, but no wiring to the bars yet for it.

The schottky rectifier is very efficient, so, yes, as you pointed out, low forward voltage drop. This also means less heat generated in that part! The power is moved out into the loads, and the battery instead. You do need a heatsink for it though. The part needs to be sandwiched in between some aluminum with silicone heatsink compound on the metal side. The metal side is electrically isolated on the rectifier. The IC regulator should get a heatsink as well, it's metal is ground. The regulator runs very cool, especially on our 7 ohm field coils. It will drive a field coil well below 1 ohm, without a problem.


If you search, you can find patent info on the IC alternator regulator, with very detailed descriptions of the circuitry. A bit too technical unless you're a total geek.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 09:01:10 AM by 74750k4 »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 12:55:10 AM »
I think if you examine the Honda wire diagram carefully, you'll find that the kill switch only powers the spark coils.
The Regulator senses the black wire directly from the key switch.  If that switch and the main fuse are in good working order, those components drop less the .5V for the Vreg to sense.  When new, it was something like .2V for all the wire and contacts in the pathway.

You can certainly improve charging efficiency using schottky diodes in 3 phase rectifier.  Shottky forward voltage drops are generally in the .3-.4 V, rather than the .6 - .7V range.  It's a straightforward ohms law calculation to determine the watts lost (rather than transferred to the system) at any given amperage passing through it.

However, the design of the SOHC4 alternator is self limiting in current capability.  If the current output (alternator load) attempts to exceed its limit, it drains off/lowers the voltage peaks developed in the stator which effect strength and the "on time" of each diode of the rectifier.  The shottky benefit is real for all operation below the self limiting nature of the alternator design.

To actually increase the output capacity of the alternator, you need more stator windings for the magnetic lines of flux to cross, or increase the strength of those magnetic lines of flux so it is more difficult to collapse them.

The magnetic flux lines are created by the field coil and rotor (which forms the core of the electromagnet).  To make a stronger electromagnet, you would need a higher voltage for it, or more windings, or more current/power fed to the field coil.  The stock regulator applies full battery voltage to the field coil through a metal to metal contact.  There isn't a silicon device in the world that has as close to zero voltage drop across it as a direct metal to metal connection.

For all other regulator modes below maximum effort, the Electronic regulator can add greater efficiency power transfer from alternator to system.  Unless the electronic regulator boosts the voltage over and above what is available from the battery when maximum output is required, the alternator can't put out more than it's designed limit.

I don't understand why "tighter regulation" is so attractive for the SOHC4.  Unless you are adding computer type devices to the power buss, the standard battery provides all the smoothing needed for the stock components.

If you are really concerned about power buss system noise, you'll be horrified to see what is injected into the power buss from an operating starter motor.

I suppose an investigation into the proposed VRs is warranted to see if they can withstand the current and back EMF spikes the starter motor dumps into the power bus and sensing circuitry, particularly when a smaller battery is employed.  Perhaps closer attention to wire routes may be in order, or chokes or capacitors in strategic locations.  I haven't looked at the specs in that detail, yet.

Certainly the parts referred to are interesting, and likely fun for experimentation.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline dave500

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 01:58:42 AM »
does the kawi have two phase charging and the third runs the headlight?you can convert it to three phase.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 08:57:36 AM »
Yes! It started out as an experiment. But the experimental stage is over.
...and yes, I forgot the kill switch was for the coil power only, shortly after the post. My bad.

The tight regulation is good for a long battery life. Never draining, and never over charging...  a nice constant voltage. The "tiny" battery has a 230 cold cranking amp rating, 340 amps peak. Weighing in at 2.2 lbs., it's light, and small, but quite large in it's capabilities.

http://earthxmotorsports.com/products-page/gsx1100f-katana-gsxr1100-gs1000/etx18b/


The L9911 VR IC is pretty immune to spikes/ripple on the power line. The spec calls that out in the data sheet. I can't imagine a car starter would present less spikes/noise.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 09:03:24 AM »
Corrected field coil power wiring description...  power comes from Key Switch, not kill switch!

Offline RSchaefer

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 10:51:40 AM »
Does someone make a plug-and-play option like this for the CB750 wiring harnesses?
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Offline SF

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 11:11:25 AM »
what he said but for cb550?
92 wr250 sold
98 zx6r sold
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 11:32:40 AM »
The tight regulation is good for a long battery life. Never draining, and never over charging...  a nice constant voltage.

I agree about never overcharging for better battery life, and that is precisely what the stock mechanical regulator can do and has since its introduction.  However, the draining aspect is a function of alternator capacity and system loads, rather than Vreg capability.  I haven't characterized the 650 alternator.  But, the other SOHC4 alternators make about 1/3 of their peak capacity at idle RPM.  For the 750, 1/3 of 210 watts is 70 Watts.  For the 550 and other smaller bikes, 1/3 of 150 watts is 50 watts.  With lighting on, I've measured the system drain apart from battery charging to be about 120 watts (10 amps).  Neither bike, using alternators within spec, can maintain a battery at full voltage when the bike uses more power than is available from the alternator, unless the bike's standard load is reduced below what the alternator can supply at idle RPM.
"Tighter regulation" is simply impossible when such deficiencies are encountered.  The Battery is still going to drain, even if the vreg tells the alternator to make all the power it can.  The stock regulator gives all the voltage available to the alternator field when the battery is in depletion mode, supplying hthe difference between bike demand and alternator output.  Any electrical junction in the path between battery and Field coil is going to reduce that voltage by it's junction drop characteristics.  Schottky devices will be at a lower differential than standard silicon, but still higher than what can achieved by a direct mechanical metal to metal contact.

I don't believe it is about tighter regulation, but rather improved efficiency in between the extreme ends of the charging system operating envelope.  However, I have no data to quantify how much efficiency improvement is gained by the experimental vreg operation over the stock.  There should be some.  But, I don't know if it is 10% or more 0.1%.  Have you calculated or measured these differences?  It does make sense that more power can gleaned from the alternator at a lower RPM than the stock device.  I'd like to know what the RPM break point shift is with the selected Vreg device where the alternator takes over the system load and begins recharging the battery.

In the end I have trouble accepting that, in operation, the proposed vreg will actually provide a "a nice constant voltage" to the battery of the standard SOHC4, regardless of battery technology selected.

The "tiny" battery has a 230 cold cranking amp rating, 340 amps peak. Weighing in at 2.2 lbs., it's light, and small, but quite large in it's capabilities.
The LiFePO4 battery technology may indeed need the "Tighter regulation" aspect.  Particularly if you can adjust the regulator to a peak voltage of 14.4 V rather than the 14.5 V to 14.9 V the stock regulator has for a tolerance range.  Lead acid battery tech is far more tolerant to input voltage variations and simply absorbs power and ignores any regulation variance with it's low impedance characteristics.

I believe it was Scottly that reported that the LiFePO4 battery impedance raised significantly when the battery achieved full capacity and was of no further use to quell or control voltage variations.  Of course, the low impedance aspect would return when any load was placed upon the battery, moving it off its "full" status.  But, when such a battery in the SOHC4 system was employed, "tighter regulation" may be of some help to the battery.  However, battery damage incurred by over voltage excursions have not been characterized, as to service life detriment quantification, or just what the amplitude and frequency is required to make an impact on such damage for this battery technology.  I question the assumption that less than "tight regulation" damages the battery in any way.

The L9911 VR IC is pretty immune to spikes/ripple on the power line. The spec calls that out in the data sheet. I can't imagine a car starter would present less spikes/noise.
Much depends on where the connections are made as to the devices exposure to EMF spikes.  The stock lead acid battery acts as a filter, whose low impedance absorbs spikes present on the distributed buss.  The effect is much more pronounced in closer proximity the battery terminals.  Before computers and low voltage electronics were added to the vehicle equipment list, much less attention was paid to power distribution, and the SOHC4 shows this by having a power distribution connection for the bike's electrical buss placed in line between battery and starter load.  The convenient buss connection was atop the stock solenoid rather than at the battery terminals.

In summary, you can't keep the stock battery from draining, unless you change the alternator capability or the bike's system loading.
"Tight regulation" simply isn't needed for a lead acid battery.   They can be charged and maintained nicely by a half wave bridge.  In fact, many chargers tout "pulsing" as a means to limit/reduce sulfation effects.  (Though there is some doubt of it's effectiveness upon nested cells.)
It may be helpful for a LiFEPO4 battery, but this is unquantified.

I guess, I just don't see how the "experimentation" is "done".  Or, how there is a significant operational benefit to its mode of operation other than an unquantified efficiency improvement.

It does appear to be "Cheap" and "Modern", though.  Perhaps it is for those who can't or have no desire to make the stock bits function as they have for 40 years.   ;D

Have fun with your experiment!
Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 11:38:49 AM »
Does someone make a plug-and-play option like this for the CB750 wiring harnesses?

This is pretty much the penultimate Reg/Rec replacement thread.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=12465.0

Many options listed there.
Do you have a copy of the Honda Shop Manual or Parts List for your bike? Get one here:
https://www.honda4fun.com/materiale/documentazione-tecnica
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Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 12:46:16 PM »
Whew!!! :) No I'm not here to make a believer out of you, or go back to the experimental stage, and collect data points for you. You seem to have made up your mind, and I'm not here to change that. Thanks for the encouragement though! :)

Offline Harsh

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2013, 03:57:55 PM »
So this thread got me to thinking...what about a very modern RR?  I am talking about a mosfet RR ( I think this is a shunt style).  I might be able to get a Shindengen FH020AA or a Shindengen FH0012AA RR from a buddy that is parting a Triumph Daytona 675.

Does anyone see any issues is hooking one of these up?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2013, 05:04:52 PM »
So this thread got me to thinking...what about a very modern RR?  I am talking about a mosfet RR ( I think this is a shunt style).  I might be able to get a Shindengen FH020AA or a Shindengen FH0012AA RR from a buddy that is parting a Triumph Daytona 675.

Does anyone see any issues is hooking one of these up?

Do you have a schematic or any details about the charging system it is a part of?

In general though, I thought the shunt style was primarily for permanent magnet alternators, where the magnetic field strength is not controllable.  The alternator always makes max power for the RPM it is spinning.  The regulator shunts the excess power into a heat sink in order to keep the battery from frying.  So, the alternator is always operating full on.

You *could* mimic this by wiring the field coil on the SOHC4 with direct 12V power.  However, it would always then produce maximum heat, too.  Inferring shorter working life.

The SOHC4 alternators need the regulator to control the field coil (electromagnet) in response to battery charge state, to reduce the alternator output power when it isn't needed.

What is the attraction to a "modern" regulator?  What change has been made to your bike that requires such?  Is it just the "cool" factor?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Online scottly

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2013, 05:53:31 PM »
Whew!!! :) No I'm not here to make a believer out of you, or go back to the experimental stage, and collect data points for you. You seem to have made up your mind, and I'm not here to change that. Thanks for the encouragement though! :)
Thanks for posting about these parts, for those of us that are adventurous. One issue I see is the lead layout is designed for printed circuit board mounting; connecting those pins to wires may be difficult? Not a lot of space between them...

(BTW, there are FET devices that have almost no voltage drop when turned "on", very close to some metal-to-metal contacts, Lloyd...)
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Offline Harsh

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2013, 06:12:14 PM »
So this thread got me to thinking...what about a very modern RR?  I am talking about a mosfet RR ( I think this is a shunt style).  I might be able to get a Shindengen FH020AA or a Shindengen FH0012AA RR from a buddy that is parting a Triumph Daytona 675.

Does anyone see any issues is hooking one of these up?

Do you have a schematic or any details about the charging system it is a part of?

What is the attraction to a "modern" regulator?  What change has been made to your bike that requires such?  Is it just the "cool" factor?

Like I said they are on Triumph Daytona 675's (Yamaha's also use them as well as other bikes I am sure).

The attraction is that many things get better with the advancement in technologies.  Otherwise, we could still be riding horses.  I have made no modifications to my bike that might require such a change, but if I can make something function more efficient, better, or effectively I would be willing to go down that road.

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2013, 06:29:21 PM »
Does someone make a plug-and-play option like this for the CB750 wiring harnesses?
Check Oregon Motorcycle Parts.
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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2013, 06:33:12 PM »
( I think this is a shunt style).
Does anyone see any issues is hooking one of these up?
It's simply the wrong style regulator for an SOHC style charging system.
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Offline Harsh

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 04:04:54 AM »
( I think this is a shunt style).
Does anyone see any issues is hooking one of these up?
It's simply the wrong style regulator for an SOHC style charging system.

Thanks for the simple answer.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 09:32:03 AM »
Whew!!! :) No I'm not here to make a believer out of you, or go back to the experimental stage, and collect data points for you. You seem to have made up your mind, and I'm not here to change that. Thanks for the encouragement though! :)
Thanks for posting about these parts, for those of us that are adventurous. One issue I see is the lead layout is designed for printed circuit board mounting; connecting those pins to wires may be difficult? Not a lot of space between them...

Correct. The L9911 uses industry standard .100" center spacing for the pins (see datasheet drawing). Mount to heatsink, solder a small piece of perfboard, or a socket. Some perfboards/kits have larger holes for 16-18 ga wires, that connect to the .100" holes. Here's one... 
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=13297702

The FUS45 Schottky Rect. Bridge uses larger, unusual pin pitch to conduct the maximum 45 amps. (see datasheet drawing) Currently I am soldered on, using a piece of that same perfboard in the large holes. I have some sockets coming from Digikey for the next iteration.

Obviously, if you are looking for a finished product, this kind of project is probably not for you. The Honda parts do work well, but selenium rectifiers, and relays, seem a bit tired now. Oregon Motorcycles parts work better. There are several automotive solid state 3 pin regulators that work great! The Hella is one...  you can connect the harness directly to it since it has male blade push on pins....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-1602-2002-2002Tii-BAVARIAS-3-0CS-2800CS-2500-3-0S-3-0SI-/251192268046?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7c39d50e&vxp=mtr

Having the correct 3.5mm bullet connectors to crimp on the wiring is a big help.
I'm a big fan of not cutting anything on the harness, unless repairing it.


Offline Kickstart

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 08:17:15 PM »
I think TwoTired makes some excellent points... especially this one:

...
In summary, you can't keep the stock battery from draining, unless you change the alternator capability or the bike's system loading....

But I'm wondering if you can have the best of both worlds... somehow increasing the alternator output AND more efficient regulation.

In HondaMan's book, he mentions you can swap in the CB750A field coil to gennerate about 20 more watts of power.   I've also come across a few posts by HondaMan where he mentions it's possible to re-wire your field coil and/or alternator windings to increase power output.  The downside is it would also increase the load on the engine:


... and aftermarket winding companies would add some more wires to the windings or build shims for those fields to boost it to 350 watts for tourers who wanted bigger lights.

...
Generally speaking, the larger alternators will add harmonic balance issues to the crankshaft that you might not appreciate. In the case of the CBX, there is a lot of crank mass, so a 15% increase in the alternator's not so bad. On a 500, this will be a lot. On a 750, it will drop HP by almost 1, and it will rev up noticeably slower....

But... I'm thinking you could use the CB750A field and/or re-wire the windings in your alternator.... coupling this with a modern rectifier (or home built modern electronic circuit) which should prevent an increased load on the engine (except during high charge modes)... right?  I guess you would still have the increased engine load at idle (and thus the slower rev-up from idle) if the new set-up generated enough power to actually charge the battery even at idle,  but I would think you could avoid the 1 HP loss above 2k RPM.

Clean electrical contacts and reducing power drain (LED bulbs where appropriate) are probably the easier way to go, but I like the idea of tweaking this system.  It would be nice to be able to run some accessories of the bike (heated grips?)

If you enjoy reading this thread, you would probably also like this post from Hondaman:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=43684.25
- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 08:25:50 PM »
Stock battery or not...  no draining problems here.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Regulators and Rectifiers
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 09:21:50 PM »
Stock battery or not...  no draining problems here.

I meant reducing the total electrical load...  addressing the demand side of the supply vs demand equation.
Even with the better electronics, our batteries will slowly drain at idle unless we reduce the electrical load. 

Not really an issue if you are riding more than idling, but it did cause a small surprise for me when taking an advanced motorcycle safety course last summer.  Half way through the day (with a lot of idling and turning the bike on/off) my bike didn't have enough juice for the starter.  Fortunately, we have a kick starter... and knowing how our bikes electrical system works, I just made sure I held the throttle above 2k for a while.

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA