Author Topic: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...  (Read 3300 times)

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Offline rainydayrecess

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CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« on: November 09, 2011, 05:13:34 PM »
Hey guys and gals,

This is my first post and I'll make it short.
I’ve scoured over the internet trying to find a solution to this problem to no avail.

I have a '72 CB350f that I recently converted the headlight to a halogen H4 from a sealed beam incandescent. The first few were 60/55 and they kept blowing after just a few miles of running. I switched to a lower 35/35 and it would be great for a few miles then, pop, burns out.

I have since hard-wired every connection on the bike and replaced any suspect/rotten wires with new 16 gauge wires with solder and heat-shrink wrap on all connections. I took off horn and turn signals and their connecting wires. Also replaced the rectifier and regulator from (ww.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/) and put in a new battery.

I have even wired in a new water-proof starter button under the seat and a waterproof toggle switch for the high and low beam thinking that maybe there was a short in the old switches.

It seems like every time I go for a ride and get the bike over 50 the light burns out which, is fun at night. Maybe it is getting too hot and burning out? I know not to touch the bulb with my greasy fingers also.

So my questions are:
1.   Do I need to put in some kind of resistor from the power supply wires to the H4 bulb?
2.   Will my light keep burning out instantly if I switch to an HID setup?
Thanks for any ideas or suggestions or points in the right direction.
RDR

Offline tomkimberly

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 07:43:08 PM »
I can only think of two things, over voltage (not likely on a CB370F) or vibration is causing the bulb to blow. Have you checked and verified the voltage output for the head light?

Tom

Offline Bodi

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 07:44:45 PM »
I agree with two possibilities. Extreme vibration or under/overvoltage. voltage is pretty easy to check with a meter, I would wire it up and duct tape it to the tank so I can see the voltage while riding.
Automotive lamps are fine with 14.5V or so. I would expect tail lights to be burning out prematurely as well if you have serious overvoltage though, and your battery would be "boiling" dry pretty quickly.
Undervoltage affects halogen lamps (ie the H4 lamp) - if they run too cool the filament gets brittle. It should be at 13V+ to work properly.
Vibration that kills lamps is usually a resonance, I've seen it on tail lamps a few times where the back fender starts vibrating wildly at some engine or road speed, shaking the lamp filament enough to break it.
Bulb failure is also common if you use inexpensive automotive tail bulbs, the motorcycle bulbs are made to handle more vibration... and "name brand" car bulbs are better than cheapo ones.
Possibly your headlight bucket or the actual H4 fixture are mounted loosely enough to pick up a resonant vibration? I've used H4 headlights on several bikes and not had lamp life issues.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 10:42:09 PM »
Check your bike's voltage at 4000 RPM, for sure. If the battery has a cracked plate or web, the voltage can jump up while the battery is being charged more than a couple of amps. This can pop the bulbs.

DON'T use a 50w or larger H4 bulb in the 350F. The alternator cannot handle it. The stock headlight was 35/35w, stick with that or you'll suffer all sorts of electrical issues. The Baby Four is, well...small.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 11:50:29 PM »
Or you could consider the Philips Ecovision Halogen which consumes 44/48 Watts and produces the light of a 55/60 Watts bulb. Even the 350 can handle that. But that is after you've sorted out the problem (see suggestions above).
BTW, in Europe CB 350 Fours standard had 40/45 watts bulbs.
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 12:20:45 AM »
how is the 350 alternator weaker than the 500/550?the field coil is the same,the stator has a different part number because of the leads and plug wire but tests electricaly the same,only the rotor is different,is that why its weaker?i have a 350 alternator here,maybe it needs to be spun faster more of the time because of the rotor?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 12:22:47 AM by dave500 »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 07:56:31 AM »
how is the 350 alternator weaker than the 500/550?the field coil is the same,the stator has a different part number because of the leads and plug wire but tests electricaly the same,only the rotor is different,is that why its weaker?i have a 350 alternator here,maybe it needs to be spun faster more of the time because of the rotor?

The stator on the 350F has fewer windings on the poles. I have heard of other stators being installed on them, but haven't yet had time to try it out myself. When I get to working on mine, I will, just to see if it is true. Typically, the 350F alternator is hard pressed to make more than 80 watts, although I think it was advertised at 90w in the day. Everything has to be perfect (connectors, grounds, etc.) to make that 90 figure.

Of course, it was also advertised at 34 HP, but most of them that I saw tested ran more like 28 HP. The 350 Twin made 30 (CL) and 32 (CB) and weighed less, so the magazines used to rip this bike up. They completely missed the point, IMO! :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline heffay

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 08:04:48 AM »
They completely missed the point, IMO! :)

YUP!
Today: '73 cb350f, '96 Ducati 900 Supersport
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 11:09:31 AM »
thanks honda man,ill have a closer look at a 500 and 350 stator side by side,the 350 stator i have here might have been substituted with a 500 one?

Offline rainydayrecess

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 12:27:04 PM »
Awesome! Thanks for the help guys.

I will set up a meter and check the voltage draw and tighten the can.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 08:48:44 PM »
hondaman,,heres those stators,,the one on the top is the 350,the markings are "ND 021100  0780   7M  JAPAN,my 500/550 ones have no markings.

the right hand one here is the 350,they both seem to have the same winding count as best i can see and the same resistance?

its a bit optical here but they are the same diameter and both have 36 segments.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 08:53:09 PM by dave500 »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 05:28:34 PM »
hondaman,,heres those stators,,the one on the top is the 350,the markings are "ND 021100  0780   7M  JAPAN,my 500/550 ones have no markings.

the right hand one here is the 350,they both seem to have the same winding count as best i can see and the same resistance?

its a bit optical here but they are the same diameter and both have 36 segments.

See if you can attempt this: try to measure the wire gauge (like with calipers?) and see if you can physically count the wire turns around at least 3 different "posts" (I think this might be what you are calling 'segments'?). The amount of current the pole (or post, or segment) generates per magnetic switch pass is mostly related to the number of windings there. The amount of heat loss is inversely proportional to the wire size and spacing between those wires.

For example, on the 1967-68 SuperHawk (305cc twin) the alternators had insulation issues because the last of the 'Hawks had bigger valves and ran hotter. The windings were wrapped in linen, which retained heat and hastened their breakdown. So, removing all that, and using slightly smaller wire with better, thinner insulation allowed me to rewind them to make about 1 amp extra current (i.e., 11 turns more wire on each pole). In the 500/550 alternators, the windings were often smoothly and evenly wound until about 1975, after which they looked a lot like these pictures. The 350F looked like this, too.  The uneven layering of the wire wrap drops the efficiency of the poles by as much as 12-15%, and the 350F suffered a lot more from what I have seen of them. This makes then run cooler, which improves long-term reliability, but with modern insulation in place of the 1970s stuff, a smaller wire with thinner insulation can boost the output by up to 20% at 2500+ RPM.

The only time I ever counted the turns on one of these myself was in 1974 when a 350F rider who crashed on his alternator wanted to replace it, and had a 500 Four alternator from a junkyard. I don't know if he did it, but I showed him how to clean off the insulation so he could try to swap the harness parts. While the two were in front of me, I remember counting the visible windings out of curiosity and found 3 less wraps on the 350F poles (from what I could see). It wasn't a lot of difference, but with one having about 30 and the other 33, that makes almost 9% difference between them. Hence my comment, above.

I'd be interested to know how many visible wraps you can see? Honda has always tried to reduce their inventory of parts AFTER the bikes are in production, so it wouldn't be the first time a swap of some other bike part showed up elsewhwere. It would also be real helpful for those of us who love the 350F and might need a part or two!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 06:25:33 PM »
thanks honda man,i cant really count the windings accurately without sort of inserting a jewellers screw driver and moving the wire to one side to check,i dont want to do that,im sure the stators will swap into each others housings,so even just a few more turns of wire can net a decent gain?you learn something everyday,,my wife asked me why our dog always turns around a few times before settling on his bed,,thats because one good turn deserves another i told her,ill be tinkering around today ill see if the 350 stator will go into a 500 housing,,i dont have any other 350 cases to test fit visa versa.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 08:32:01 PM »
here a 350 stator slots straight into the 500/550 housing,i would hazard a guess and say the 500/550 stator will go into the 350 straight up with the loom changed to suit.

the 350 tail end wire comes out counter clockwise and has three separate bullet connectors whereas the 500 ones  exit in a clockwise fashion and the wires end up into a gang plug.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 08:34:24 PM by dave500 »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 10:22:33 PM »
Way cool, Dave! This opens up a whole new horizon, here. I'll have to see if I can find a 500/550 alternator (preferably a burned-up one) that could be disassembled and the wire turns counted. Then a rewire could be attempted, and the results could be something we could all use. It would be WAY, WAY cool if a 350F could make at least 150 watts of power so those who want to run a Dyna S or a halogen headlight of meaningful brightness (me, the latter - old eyes and all...). As I rebuild my new Baby Four toy, I'd like to try this sort of thing out.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 11:15:01 PM »
no worries,i think the 500 stators would be an easy upgrade for the 350 fellas,just a little wiring fiddle.

Offline heffay

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 07:47:52 AM »
Honda Man, no Dyna S on my 350f?  I've been running one for a few years, but recently I'm having 2 cylinders die on me regularly.  It is intermittent and seems to be once its warmed up and load is on the motor.  I swapped one of my 400f coils in but no fixy.  Gonna swap the other in today.  Tell me more why I shouldn't run the Dyna please.
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 07:48:56 PM »
I'm sure HondaMan will verify but I believe the issue is that the Dyna-S creates a bit more load (don't recall the exact amount) than the factory ignition setup  The 350f doesn't have much to spare.  Your wiring must be all cleaned/optimized to be pulling it off.  It's so easy to lose energy with bad connectors and wiring with these 5000 year old bikes :) 
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Offline scfire

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 03:21:51 PM »
here a 350 stator slots straight into the 500/550 housing,i would hazard a guess and say the 500/550 stator will go into the 350 straight up with the loom changed to suit.

the 350 tail end wire comes out counter clockwise and has three separate bullet connectors whereas the 500 ones  exit in a clockwise fashion and the wires end up into a gang plug.

Dragging a post out to see if anyone has pulled this swap off. I just happen to have all the necessary parts from a 500 but wanted to see if anyone knows if it is worth the time.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 03:51:13 PM »
the test specs for the 500/550 and 350 stators are the same,i also have a 350 field which tests the same as 500 ones and is the same physically,the rotor seems skinnier/thinner on the 350s,maybe its lighter to suit the 350?that might be the only difference in the actual alternators?

Offline scfire

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Re: CB350f halogen conversion keeps blowing out...
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 03:59:33 PM »
That was quick. Thanks Dave.