Author Topic: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive  (Read 2383 times)

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Offline Pipfromoz

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new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« on: February 05, 2013, 06:08:41 AM »
I have a honda 900 Hornet which I love but I'm not using it enough to justify the reg and insurance now that I have retired and don't ride it to work any more. In Australia we have a club permit system which allows us to ride a 25 year old bike for 45 days of the year for $67, (much cheaper than $500+ for normal reg). I dragged my old 750K7 out of the container but it was going to take a while to get it roadworthy and I happened to see a 750a in original condition with 8700 original miles on it so I bought it. The fuel injected Hornet is a far cry from the cb750a but nevertheless, there is a lot to like about about the "a" and I have thoroughly enjoyed my first few rides. The a's were only sold in America so they are quite a novelty out here and will be a talking point on our classic bike rides for sure. But enough of my waffle, on to the problem.

The bike functions perfectly most of the time but occasionally, it loses drive and the position of the gear lever makes no difference. When this happens, the motor appears to be under load, as if something is engaged internally, but the drive is not making it to the back wheel. Each time it has happened, walking it back and forth a little and shaking it side to side, with the neutral light lit, has mysteriously repaired it and when it is kicked into gear all is well again.

I'm really hoping this has happened to someone in the past or there's a 750a guru out there who will have the answer.

Love the blog by the way.
Pip.
Honda 900 Hornet, CB750k7, CB750A, Montesa 348 Cota, '96 Gas Gas 270, BSA Bantam 125 in trials trim.

Offline raymond10078

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 06:52:37 AM »
First off, I’m not yet clear on your symptoms.  When the bike “loses drive” does the back wheel drive at all – even on the center stand?  I am asking because there are two clutch packs, and one possibility is that both clutch packs are engaged at the same time, or that the single clutch pack (that should be fully engaged) is slipping.

Two gears selected at the same time would point to the selector valve, the pressure bleed valve on a clutch pack, and maybe the high pressure bypass valve sticking occasionally (although this doesn’t seem that likely).

A slipping clutch pack could be the selector valve, the pump, the bypass valve sticking open, the oil screen partially clogged, a worn clutch pack, bad clutch pack o-ring, the wrong oil, and more I can’t think of right now.

I would check the side stand adjustment – assuming that it may be moving the selector valve when it should not move.  The nice thing about this check is that it is easy and costs nothing but time.

Otherwise, you could always drop the pan and check the oil pump inlet screen – just to make sure it is clean.  If you wanted to be more invasive, you could also drop the oil passage body – to make sure it is clean.

You could also check the transmission line/oil pressure to eliminate pressure (too much, or too little) as a potential cause – especially if you could check it when the symptoms occur.

I know there’s more to check – these are just the quicker, easier things – before you get into the pump, the selector valve itself, etc.

I hope others at their two cents – so we call all help you out!
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Offline Pipfromoz

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 01:38:47 PM »
Thanks heaps for the reply Kandrtech - that gives me some things to try.

Haven't had it on the centre stand when it happens but there certainly wasn't any detectable drive - I could move the bike back and forth easily with the engine running, though I realise that it is normally easy to move when in neutral and the wheel turns when on the centre stand. Next time it happens I will try to remember to put it on the stand and check.

When I brought the bike home last Tuesday, I changed the oil. The oil which came out was quite clean. I replaced it with Castrol magnatec 10W-40, is it possible the oil's viscosity is too low for the old girl? Changing the oil would certainly be an easy repair.

My gut feeling is that it is not something slipping - feels more like your selection suggestion or both clutches engaging. When I wind the throttle on the motor doesn't rev freely like it should do in neutral, it's a bit like having the bike in drive with the front wheel against a brick wall and its the same in all three gear positions.

I read something on an earlier post last night from someone in Australia who had an "a" with 8000 on the clock with a rattle. He had dismantled the transmission to search for a problem. I bought the bike from two sons whose father had unfortunately died. It's very possible that this is the bike I have because there aren't many of them over here and I just wonder if he has reassembled it incorrectly like we amateurs tend to sometimes do.

Any way, thanks again for your help, it's wonderful to find someone willing to offer advice. Trouble with an intermittent problem like this though - will I ever know if I've fixed it, or is the next occurrence just around the corner.
Pip.
Honda 900 Hornet, CB750k7, CB750A, Montesa 348 Cota, '96 Gas Gas 270, BSA Bantam 125 in trials trim.

Offline 05c50

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 02:22:18 PM »
If it's happening in all three shift positions, I would suspect that the problem is in the shifter. How often does it happen? Could you drive around in low and see if it happens? When it happens, did you shut the engine off and restart it? When it happens, try moving the side stand without moving the shifter. Just some things to try to help diagnose the problem.

........Paul
Wear a helmet,the life you save may be your own.Ask me how I know.               CB650C,CB550F,GL1000,CB750A

Offline cb750aowner

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 02:49:16 PM »
10w-40 is what the owner's manual calls for, so you're on track with viscosity.

I personally stay away from automobile oils, sticking with oils rated JASO MA or JASO MA2.  These oils are meant for wet clutch bikes.  If you read this site (and others) MANY will say that they've had good luck with automotive oils, I just choose to use what mother Honda intended.

Otherwise, the other post from 05c50 got me thinking about the "all gear positions", too.  I know I would all appreciate a step by step description of what happened, what you did/tried, etc.  Anyway, I'm guessing that there are two things in the system that could affect all gear positions: one is the bypass valve on the oil passage plate (in the sump), and the other is the bypass/check valve on the converter cover.  I'd lean more towards the former than the latter.  Both are accessible without splitting the engine apart.

If your shift lights are changing, then at least that part of shift mechanism is working.  The plunger on the hydraulic valve though, may not be playing well with the mechanism.  The service manual covers this - download a copy if you haven't already done so.

I hope that someone that has gone through something similar to your issue pipe up and helps us all out!

Offline raymond10078

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 03:27:40 PM »
Yeah, I missed the all gear positions have no affect thing . . . .
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Offline Pipfromoz

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 12:30:32 AM »
So glad I joined this community - thanks heaps for the input.

Sorry about the lack of stepwise "what I did", it has only happened twice so far and one of those times I was stopped at an intersection waiting for the lights to go green on a moderate uphill grade. The panic which ensued with cars behind and my wife on the back, makes it difficult to remember what I actually did.

I am a bit light on for time to start pulling too much apart so I will just keep using the bike and try to be a bit more methodical about what I try when it happens next.

Please stay tuned for the next exciting installment and thanks again for your suggestions.

PS I spent a little time cleaning up the points, regapping and timing and she is purring like a kitten now.

Cheers - Pipfromoz
Pip.
Honda 900 Hornet, CB750k7, CB750A, Montesa 348 Cota, '96 Gas Gas 270, BSA Bantam 125 in trials trim.

Offline Pipfromoz

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2013, 11:00:05 PM »
Haven't had time to do any work on the bike but I had a few minutes spare today so I went for another ride to see if anything new happened..... and I think it did.

I lost drive again waiting for the lights to change. (Usually seems to happen when I have to wait a fair long time at the lights and the bike is well warmed up)

This time the bike was in drive, (or 2), and I tried to quickly push it out of the way because there was a semi trailer behind me, (I think you guys call them 18 wheelers), but to my horror, the bike was locked up and wouldn't move. I kicked the shift down in desperation and was very relieved to find it put the bike in low, (or 1), and off I went.

Now that got me thinking..... I seem to remember that the last time I lost drive the bike was in low and I was able to move the bike ok. This time it was in drive and it locked up when it lost drive. So I'm thinking that perhaps this time it slipped between low and drive and both clutches engaged and locked it up and last time it slipped between low and neutral so there were no clutches engaged. Which makes me think that the problem is somewhere in the gear selection valve as one of you guys suggested.

Any way, when I get through painting the living room I think my wife will let me spend some time on the bike and I'm going to investigate the shifting mechanism.

Funny thing is..... I bought this bike because it was unusual and I expected it to be a bit ordinary to ride, but I'm really enjoying riding it.
Pip.
Honda 900 Hornet, CB750k7, CB750A, Montesa 348 Cota, '96 Gas Gas 270, BSA Bantam 125 in trials trim.

Offline raymond10078

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 03:59:41 AM »
Although it may not completely fit the symptoms/behaviors - thought of something else . . . that either the front/rear brakes are locking up.  My first thought was the rear, since it has the locking mechanism (for "park").  I have heard of any front that lock up, but then let go on there own.  Maybe just open up the locking mechanism and spray in some lube . . . .
1978 CB750A (upgrading very, very slowly)

Past bikes - Honda: SL350, CX650C, CB900C, CB1000C, CM450A; Kawasaki: several 1972 750 H2's; Suzuki: TC90J.

Bikes I want: CX650ED, a mid-sized japanese V-twin with ABS.

Offline Pipfromoz

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Re: new 750a owner - bike occasionally loses drive
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 01:53:33 AM »
Got the painting done so I had a little time to spend on the bike.

And the good news is..... I think I've fixed it.

Always best to attack the easiest possibility first I guess, so I started by investigating the side stand.

On close inspection, I realised that when the side stand was up, it was resting against the bottom of the muffler and was not quite going up far enough to be resting against the stop on the frame. It was only a tiny bit off, but I figured it might just be affecting the position of the selection valve, so I put a neat dent in the bottom of the muffler with a ball pean hammer so that the stand went up against the stop on the frame.

While I was fiddling with the side stand, I checked the adjustment of the linkage between the stand and the arm. The instructions in the manual were a bit hard to understand, but after fiddling with it for a while, I realised that as I shortened the arm, it prevented the gear shift from being able to put the bike in drive and then as I shortened it further it prevented it going into low as well. So I basically made the linkage as long as possible, making sure that it still kicked the bike into neutral when the stand was lowered.

My wife and I went on a good long test ride around town last night and stopped on hills in both low and drive to simulate waiting at the lights and at no stage did we have the losing drive problem. Time will tell I guess, but I'm hopeful.

So thanks for the help guys, we're looking forward to a club ride this Sunday.
Pip.
Honda 900 Hornet, CB750k7, CB750A, Montesa 348 Cota, '96 Gas Gas 270, BSA Bantam 125 in trials trim.