Topic: Alternator Up Grade 32amps

[andrewk]

I'm in for at least one of these when available.  Willing to road test one too and give you some reports, I ride ALOT, and I'm a very competent mechanic...

[MRieck]

I have 75% of the kit.....just waiting for the starter gear set up up. One problem was the OEM starter gears tend to have small dents were the rollers engage. We went through a few before finding a smooth one. The Yamaha starter rollers/rotor use a lot more rollers and the notcheness is very noticeable.
 That aside I found a good place to mount the reg/rec (under the battery box where the oil catch can used to be. It will be protected by the rear fender and have good air flow to it.
 It really is a nice system with a total of 5 wires (3 yellow,1 positive and 1 negative). Plus the much lighter rotor.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Michael,

When putting mine back together I went through 3 starter gears for that same reason before choosing 'the best'. Would these be able to be turned down a little to get them round again?

[754]

Might be able to hone them, what happens when they are notchy ?.. I think i last ran estart in the eighties..

[brandEn]

I have 75% of the kit.....just waiting for the starter gear set up up. One problem was the OEM starter gears tend to have small dents were the rollers engage. We went through a few before finding a smooth one. The Yamaha starter rollers/rotor use a lot more rollers and the notcheness is very noticeable.
 That aside I found a good place to mount the reg/rec (under the battery box where the oil catch can used to be. It will be protected by the rear fender and have good air flow to it.
 It really is a nice system with a total of 5 wires (3 yellow,1 positive and 1 negative). Plus the much lighter rotor.

I have noticed this as well. Finding a smooth one is getting hard. With a higher compression engine doing cold starts just causes the gear to slip.

[MRieck]

Michael,

When putting mine back together I went through 3 starter gears for that same reason before choosing 'the best'. Would these be able to be turned down a little to get them round again?

I am not sure how much material can be taken off Jerry. As Frank said...maybe they can be ground a bit. That or turned down and a ring cut with a heavy  interference fit. It would still require some welding IMO...not a lot but some. I don't know what Anders has in mind....he can better answer that then me.

[anders288]

Michael,

When putting mine back together I went through 3 starter gears for that same reason before choosing 'the best'. Would these be able to be turned down a little to get them round again?

                  Hi Jerry,
      For this application I have to bore  the new starter gear to fit over the CB starter gear. What this means is more work for me if I have recut the CB gear.
But for a stock setup there would very little for recutting the gear. There are other ways to repair them but it would be expensive.
 

[jason41987]

if theres ever a solution for a 32 amp alternator for the CB550, ill definitely be willing to pay for it.. then i could actually run a few accessories without worry... or heated apparel on cold days

[anders288]

    Hi jason41987,
 There is a 550 kit in the works. The 750 kit is tho only thing I'm working on this summer.

[jason41987]

how much will the 550 kit be? ive been planning to upgrade the charging system for more power

[oldfart]

I hope no one minds a comment here.  It is exciting in a way to see modern technology applied to vintage machinery, and in one way or another this sort of thing has been going on for some time.  Yoshimura put magneto ignition on their racing Suzukis, Honda had smaller alternator options in the ther DOHC four race kits, and I and others have developed better alternators, better regulators, ignition enhancements, etc.  It's neat stuff.  And I would be the last person to disuade anyone from making these upgrades.  One thing that troubles me though, is all this talk about how inadequate the early fours' charging system is.  Really?  I may be handicapped by living all my life in the west where one never has to decide to ride in 10 degree weather, and if so I stand corrected.  But I put 94,000 miles on my own CB500 four in the mid 70s, in addition to making a living servicing the Honda product in big, metro L.A. dealerships.  Rode over 25,000 miles a year for many years.  And I never had a charging problem, and never even met anyone with one, on one of these bikes.  And my 500 had an 80 watt Q4 headlight, high output ignition coils, points set to maximum dwell (when I wasn't running one of the two Martek ignitions I went through -- failed from engine heat, a common problem with them), an alarm system, and more powerful horns.  Never a problem. Of course I had the regulator turned up, an option available to the riders of many of these old fours.  And though I did not use heated clothing, it was out there then (Gerbing started in 1976) and people were using it.  Bottom line, if the system is in good working order and is properly maintained, it will handle anything I can conceive of doing to it.  But then I don't live in North Dakota, either, or use GPS, or believe in radios on bikes.  Don't dis the standard charging system.  It has its faults, but while it can't compare to a modern luxo-tourer, it is pretty powerful for all that. 

[MRieck]

This new system allows for full charging with a much lighter rotor. Permanent magnet system which eliminates the field coil and it's connections....much more simple. Eliminate the the point type regulator. Less battery draw to start the engine (no need to energize the field coil). Sprague clutch unit has way more engagement area which should help turning over larger, higher compression engines. Aside from the increase in charging those are some of the benefits I see.
 

[oldfart]

This new system allows for full charging with a much lighter rotor. Permanent magnet system which eliminates the field coil and it's connections....much more simple. Eliminate the the point type regulator. Less battery draw to start the engine (no need to energize the field coil). Sprague clutch unit has way more engagement area which should help turning over larger, higher compression engines. Aside from the increase in charging those are some of the benefits I see.
 

I completely get all that, really.  A huge advantage, sure.  Being in the industry for 41 years, I dare say I understand these things better than most.  And I understand the need to "mess with" that these bikes engender.  I just don't get what's so wrong with the stock system.  Maintained and ridden, it works very good.

[754]

When guys install e ignitions, voltage while starting becomes more critical (part of what. I dont like on them).

 Oldfart, did you ever use. Maxi Dwell point kits.?

 The lighter rotating elements are a plus, allow it to rev quicker..

[andrewk]

This new system allows for full charging with a much lighter rotor. Permanent magnet system which eliminates the field coil and it's connections....much more simple. Eliminate the the point type regulator. Less battery draw to start the engine (no need to energize the field coil). Sprague clutch unit has way more engagement area which should help turning over larger, higher compression engines. Aside from the increase in charging those are some of the benefits I see.
 

I completely get all that, really.  A huge advantage, sure.  Being in the industry for 41 years, I dare say I understand these things better than most.  And I understand the need to "mess with" that these bikes engender.  I just don't get what's so wrong with the stock system.  Maintained and ridden, it works very good.

I think the main problem for people is the output at lower RPM.  I've got a customer with a Dyna-S on his 550, 5 ohm coils, and a solid state regulator, and it is just barely charging at idle, even with direct 12 volts to the field coil (a commonly overlooked problem area in my experience).   Now, at 4500 RPM cruise, it's got more than enough.  But if he rides it to work (commuting in the city, stop light to stop light) he can make the battery go flat pretty quick.  When I had the bike in to repair the issue, I rode it for 2 weeks and never had a problem.  Difference was how we ran the machine.  I cruised at 4500 to 5000, he lugged it around town at 2500.

I think you (oldfart) have the same experience as me.  If you're aware of how it works mechanically (and electrically I suppose) then you know what not to do.

I guess the real answer here is, grab more throttle.

[drj434343]

I guess the real answer here is, grab more throttle.

That's my problem, and my around town experience as well.  When in town and doing stop and go, I tend to keep my revs and shift points low, perhaps too low.  What I found was that the net battery charge was negative, although it took me several weeks to get it to the point that the battery started to feel weak.  I just need to learn not to race to 5th gear all the time like I was driving a diesel.

[LesterPiglet]

I guess the real answer here is, grab more throttle.

I don't have a problem with charging.. fuel consumption, that's a different matter. 

[oldfart]

When guys install e ignitions, voltage while starting becomes more critical (part of what. I dont like on them).

 Oldfart, did you ever use. Maxi Dwell point kits.?

 The lighter rotating elements are a plus, allow it to rev quicker..

I remember the maxi-dwell points.  Just GM points on a compatible backing plate.  No big deal.  I never really liked them, because the backing plate is aluminum and thus the timing changed with engine heat.  Even the Taiwanese thinner than stock steel backing plates cause this.

[oldfart]

This new system allows for full charging with a much lighter rotor. Permanent magnet system which eliminates the field coil and it's connections....much more simple. Eliminate the the point type regulator. Less battery draw to start the engine (no need to energize the field coil). Sprague clutch unit has way more engagement area which should help turning over larger, higher compression engines. Aside from the increase in charging those are some of the benefits I see.
 

I completely get all that, really.  A huge advantage, sure.  Being in the industry for 41 years, I dare say I understand these things better than most.  And I understand the need to "mess with" that these bikes engender.  I just don't get what's so wrong with the stock system.  Maintained and ridden, it works very good.

I think the main problem for people is the output at lower RPM.  I've got a customer with a Dyna-S on his 550, 5 ohm coils, and a solid state regulator, and it is just barely charging at idle, even with direct 12 volts to the field coil (a commonly overlooked problem area in my experience).   Now, at 4500 RPM cruise, it's got more than enough.  But if he rides it to work (commuting in the city, stop light to stop light) he can make the battery go flat pretty quick.  When I had the bike in to repair the issue, I rode it for 2 weeks and never had a problem.  Difference was how we ran the machine.  I cruised at 4500 to 5000, he lugged it around town at 2500.

I think you (oldfart) have the same experience as me.  If you're aware of how it works mechanically (and electrically I suppose) then you know what not to do.

I guess the real answer here is, grab more throttle.

I think that,s a big piece of this puzzle, for sure.  Being around Hondas all my life I understood those early fours to be high rom machines. 

[oldfart]

This new system allows for full charging with a much lighter rotor. Permanent magnet system which eliminates the field coil and it's connections....much more simple. Eliminate the the point type regulator. Less battery draw to start the engine (no need to energize the field coil). Sprague clutch unit has way more engagement area which should help turning over larger, higher compression engines. Aside from the increase in charging those are some of the benefits I see.
 

I completely get all that, really.  A huge advantage, sure.  Being in the industry for 41 years, I dare say I understand these things better than most.  And I understand the need to "mess with" that these bikes engender.  I just don't get what's so wrong with the stock system.  Maintained and ridden, it works very good.

I think the main problem for people is the output at lower RPM.  I've got a customer with a Dyna-S on his 550, 5 ohm coils, and a solid state regulator, and it is just barely charging at idle, even with direct 12 volts to the field coil (a commonly overlooked problem area in my experience).   Now, at 4500 RPM cruise, it's got more than enough.  But if he rides it to work (commuting in the city, stop light to stop light) he can make the battery go flat pretty quick.  When I had the bike in to repair the issue, I rode it for 2 weeks and never had a problem.  Difference was how we ran the machine.  I cruised at 4500 to 5000, he lugged it around town at 2500.

I think you (oldfart) have the same experience as me.  If you're aware of how it works mechanically (and electrically I suppose) then you know what not to do.

I guess the real answer here is, grab more throttle.

You see, there again, the fact that the early sohcs don't charge at idle never phased me.  All the early electromag systems were like that.  It's what we all expected. 

[anders288]

I hope no one minds a comment here.  It is exciting in a way to see modern technology applied to vintage machinery, and in one way or another this sort of thing has been going on for some time.  Yoshimura put magneto ignition on their racing Suzukis, Honda had smaller alternator options in the ther DOHC four race kits, and I and others have developed better alternators, better regulators, ignition enhancements, etc.  It's neat stuff.  And I would be the last person to disuade anyone from making these upgrades.  One thing that troubles me though, is all this talk about how inadequate the early fours' charging system is.  Really?  I may be handicapped by living all my life in the west where one never has to decide to ride in 10 degree weather, and if so I stand corrected.  But I put 94,000 miles on my own CB500 four in the mid 70s, in addition to making a living servicing the Honda product in big, metro L.A. dealerships.  Rode over 25,000 miles a year for many years.  And I never had a charging problem, and never even met anyone with one, on one of these bikes.  And my 500 had an 80 watt Q4 headlight, high output ignition coils, points set to maximum dwell (when I wasn't running one of the two Martek ignitions I went through -- failed from engine heat, a common problem with them), an alarm system, and more powerful horns.  Never a problem. Of course I had the regulator turned up, an option available to the riders of many of these old fours.  And though I did not use heated clothing, it was out there then (Gerbing started in 1976) and people were using it.  Bottom line, if the system is in good working order and is properly maintained, it will handle anything I can conceive of doing to it.  But then I don't live in North Dakota, either, or use GPS, or believe in radios on bikes.  Don't dis the standard charging system.  It has its faults, but while it can't compare to a modern luxo-tourer, it is pretty powerful for all that. 

                   So in short you like barely adequate and I like more than adequate. This up grade is not mandatory.

[oldfart]

This is beginning to get humorous.  I never intended to combat anyone, just bring a little sanity to a very one-sided discussion.  I'm not dissing your idea.  As I have already said, I and others thought about and in some cases did this long before you.  It's technologically pretty cool.  What I disagree with is your assessment of the charging system as inadequate.  "Barely adequate"?  No way, unless it's for the rider who insists on never exceeding 3,000 rpm.  There are people all over the world who have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles on Honda SOHC fours, some with Windjammer fairings, radios, lights, what have you.  Do you think all of a sudden the system is no good, after all this history?  Let me ask you and others a question.  Do you even know the factory's information on these systems?  There is a great bulletin on how the 750 system works, and another on optimizing the 550 charging system.  Are you tightening your battery's termainal bolts with a wrench?   Are you falsely attributing these aging bike's many electrical gremlins to the charging system?   I say learn about the system before calling it bad.  I am all for use of technology.  I just bristle when folks say the stock is junk.  It is far from that.

[nIkbot]

I just wanna be able to ditch my battery..

[oldfart]

What?!  I'm being nice.  :-)

Ditching the battery?  Yeah, interesting idea.  Nothing wrong with that goal.

[anders288]

   If your not dissing my idea what are you doing hear. There has been posts on this forum for years about charging problems.
 I'm 60 now and can't remember that I've said and don't recall saying stock is junk.