Author Topic: Alternator Up Grade 32amps  (Read 98343 times)

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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2013, 10:34:52 AM »
   If your not dissing my idea what are you doing hear. There has been posts on this forum for years about charging problems.
 I'm 60 now and can't remember that I've said and don't recall saying stock is junk.

I can't believe a reasonable person would characterize my post as dissing your and others ideas.  I have gone out of my way to say otherwise.  If I have challenged anything, it is the notion that there is something wrong with the stock sohc four charging system.  The idea that it will not support normal use is erroneous.  I have even asked for clarification on exactly what uses and loads it has trouble with, and have given worthy examples of loads it does handle very well.  As for what I am doing here, first, a forum is an exchange of ideas, is it not?  Or is it only a venue in which some ideas are have more value than others?  I am not only a longtime member of this group but a sponsor as well.  Just saying.  If anyone else thinks I am being combative, please let me know.  It is not my intention.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 10:40:27 AM by oldfart »
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Offline cabrala

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2013, 10:45:16 AM »
My (un)asked-for two cents is that this thread is labelled as an "upgrade" for our old bikes. What it is upgrading or to the degree it is upgrading is a matter of opinion. For oldfart it isn't needed and for many others it seems to be.

I'd rather see the discussion stick to what this thing can upgrade, improve upon and do for the people who want one; whether that makes this thread lopsided or not.
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Offline nIkbot

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2013, 10:45:38 AM »
If anyone else thinks I am being combative, please let me know.  It is not my intention.











 ;D Just kidding around, I think there just has been a misunderstanding around here in the absence of tone of voice over the internet.
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Offline Elan

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #153 on: May 13, 2013, 10:53:26 AM »
   If your not dissing my idea what are you doing hear. There has been posts on this forum for years about charging problems.
 I'm 60 now and can't remember that I've said and don't recall saying stock is junk.

I can't believe a reasonable person would characterize my post as dissing your and others ideas.  I have gone out of my way to say otherwise.  If I have challenged anything, it is the notion that there is something wrong with the stock sohc four charging system.  The idea that it will not support normal use is erroneous.  I have even asked for clarification on exactly what uses and loads it has trouble with, and have given worthy examples of loads it does handle very well.  As for what I am doing here, first, a forum is an exchange of ideas, is it not?  Or is it only a venue in which some ideas are have more value than others?  I am not only a longtime member of this group but a sponsor as well.  Just saying.  If anyone else thinks I am being combative, please let me know.  It is not my intention.

I think its more about the focus of this thread- He's building a charging system that works better than stock. right, we all have been doing ok with the stock setup, some better than others, but many of us are interested in a higher performing system, which anders is producing. So this thread is about following the progress of his project. Not really to debate the performance of the original system and the validity of his project.
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #154 on: May 13, 2013, 11:05:06 AM »
Yeah, I realize I should have posted in a separate thread, so that the appearance of confrontation would be minimal.  For that I apologize, to you specifically, anders.  And thanks, nIkbot for the gentle nudges.  :-). My forum etiquette is some rusty.  Anyway, good discussion.  I'll be quiet now for the next 10 months.  Carry on.  :-)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 11:10:49 AM by oldfart »
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #155 on: May 13, 2013, 11:14:30 AM »
I don't mind adequate in my automobiles....on my bikes I have a different philosophy. Thus Ohlins, titanium exhausts, power commanders, FCR carbs, A/F meters, billet blocks etc etc.
 
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #156 on: May 13, 2013, 11:15:54 AM »
Yeah, I realize I should have posted in a separate thread, so that the appearance of confrontation would be minimal.  For that I apologize, to you specifically, anders.  And thanks, nIkbot for the gentle nudges.  :-). My forum etiquette is some rusty.  Anyway, good discussion.  I'll be quiet now for the next 10 months.  Carry on.  :-)
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Offline jason41987

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #157 on: May 13, 2013, 11:26:30 AM »
many people do OK with the stock charging systems because they know its limits, what it can and cannot do and know what to avoid... sure.. but this doesnt mean there arent things in that "cant do" list that people would really like to do.. heated seat, grips.. maybe even a heated suit for winter riding, brighter lights, and some people tour with their SOHC fours... so im sure if one could be outfitted with a GPS and radio youd have people go that route too

myself, i wouldnt mind having extra juice to run a GPS (since im moving to a new area and dont know where anything is, a GPS is almost mandatory).. and have the option of heated components for cold mornings

Offline andy750

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #158 on: May 13, 2013, 11:53:15 AM »
Hey Mike

I have been a follower of your webpage for years and always enjoyed reading your comments.  I am curious to know what you would suggest to those who want to improve their stock charging system to be able to do the things "jason41987" just mentioned i.e. heated gear for those of us in the North, brighter lights for night driving, heated grips, etc.? Perhaps start a new thread and put it in the "Tips and Tricks section - imagine it would be slightly different for CB550s and CB750s.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks
Andy
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Offline andy750

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #159 on: May 13, 2013, 11:53:45 AM »
I don't mind adequate in my automobiles....on my bikes I have a different philosophy. Thus Ohlins, titanium exhausts, power commanders, FCR carbs, A/F meters, billet blocks etc etc.

And that is why you have the "Million Dollar CB"  8)
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #160 on: May 13, 2013, 12:15:06 PM »
Hey Mike

I have been a follower of your webpage for years and always enjoyed reading your comments.  I am curious to know what you would suggest to those who want to improve their stock charging system to be able to do the things "jason41987" just mentioned i.e. heated gear for those of us in the North, brighter lights for night driving, heated grips, etc.? Perhaps start a new thread and put it in the "Tips and Tricks section - imagine it would be slightly different for CB550s and CB750s.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks
Andy

Thanks for the note, Andy, and the kind words.  I don't think any of those things are a problem on a 550 or 750. As I say, I ran a weedburner headlight and double-draw ignition coils for most of the 94,000 miles my 500 four had on it when I sold it.  Just turn the regulator up and you will have plenty of juice to handle the usual stuff.  (I have a booklet on my website about this.).  Now, heated clothing I would make an exception for, as much of it is in the 100 to 300 watt range, which of course represents a huge hit on a 170 to 230 watt charging system.  So my advice?  Limit heated clothing to heated gloves and small vest, and avoid adding lights unless they're LED.  But pretty much anything else short of a travel trailer goes, including a high wattage headlight and high performance ignition coils.

Ninety percent of charging issues is, as with any electrical problem, in the connectors.  Get 'em clean and tight.  Remember also that even electrical niggles not normally associated with the charging system can affect it.  For example, a keyswitch with bad contacts will reduce charging output because the alternator's field coil is energized through the keyswitch.  Similarly, bad connectors and sloppy wiring anywhere on the bike is going to increase the standard full-time electrical loading, putting a larger burden on the charging system.  Even a mis-adjusted brake light switch (whose light comes on prematurely) on older lower-output charging system models can make a big difference.  It could be that my experience was exemplary largely because I did not allow these things to get out of hand.  If after all this you think the system is still outputting low, check your field coil's resistance.  For max alternator output it should be closer to the low end of the range than to the high end.  Whatever the manual says, I call the range 2 to 6 ohms.  I would much rather have a 3 ohm unit than a 5 ohm one.  Although these parts from Honda are of course long gone, aftermarket sources exist and I would insist on the lower spec, as I say.  As long as it is above 2 ohms.  Later (75 and later) bikes whose headlights are on all the time can be converted to on/off systems, and that will help.  Later bikes having solid state regulators can be retroverted to the adjustable kind.  550s need to have their regulator mountings checked as a Honda publication warns that some 75 models had vibration issues that interfered with the regulator's correct function.  A similar memo indicts some 75 model field coils as needing premature replacement also.  Finally, these bikes (SOHC fours) are high revvers compared to many of the cruisers and whatnot today.  They are designed and geared to be used at 4,000+ rpm, not 2,500.  Those are my recommendations and the operating modality I used personally.

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/defense_chging.html
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 12:45:51 PM by oldfart »
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #161 on: May 13, 2013, 12:20:35 PM »
Yeah, I realize I should have posted in a separate thread, so that the appearance of confrontation would be minimal.  For that I apologize, to you specifically, anders.  And thanks, nIkbot for the gentle nudges.  :-). My forum etiquette is some rusty.  Anyway, good discussion.  I'll be quiet now for the next 10 months.  Carry on.  :-)
.....and I was just going to get into early model CBX clutches! ;D

:-)
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Offline andy750

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #162 on: May 13, 2013, 01:44:23 PM »
Now, heated clothing I would make an exception for, as much of it is in the 100 to 300 watt range, which of course represents a huge hit on a 170 to 230 watt charging system.  So my advice?  Limit heated clothing to heated gloves and small vest, and avoid adding lights unless they're LED.

Mike,

Thanks for the info and I agree with you that the stock system is in general fine for most types of riding. Of course you are lucky in the West coast to have all-year round good weather for riding and maybe where you there is less traffic to get stuck in. However in the Northeast (Boston for me), traffic is a constant issue and so a 550 idling around town with headlight always on (required in Mass.) during the summer...may have an issue. In addition people like me like to ride for as much of the year of possible and riding for an hour plus anything less than 35F requires heated gear (I have for years tried the alternative and believe me a heated jacket/gloves make all the difference. As you note the stock CB750 charging system dosent have the extra capacity for a Gerbing jacket and gloves and a small vest will not be sufficient below 32F (in my experience).

I think the great thing about Anders upgrade is that it allows all of the above to be possible plus extra so that there is no potential running issues with the bike. Its not for everyone and will likely be an expensive add on only for those that will be keeping their bike long term and riding in charging-challenging conditions but I will definitely welcome it to allow me to ride in comfort and safely (having rode 1200 miles in 32F weather over 2 days with no heated gear I know its possible but I wouldnt want to do it again ;)). And riding in a wet cold Scottish winter is no picnic either (but if you like to ride any weather is just a challenge).

I hope you stick around and continue to share your knowledge and offer up discussion.

cheers
Andy
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:47:07 PM by andy750 »
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #163 on: May 13, 2013, 02:05:06 PM »
Andy, yes, my "slip" (regional blindside) is showing, for sure.  Guess I will need to learn that for future.   :D. Although heated clothing was available back then, I seldom had chance to use it in So Cal.  My mistake in not realizing that principles learned in the limited scope of a regional experience don't necessarily translate to a broader environment.  It's already hit over 100 F out here, hard to think of bone-chilling commutes, though I have had my share of pre-30 degree rides too, just not very many.  My humble aplologies to all for my shortsightedness, and sympathies for those who ride in heated clothing weather...   :D
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 02:53:57 PM by oldfart »
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #164 on: May 13, 2013, 02:39:01 PM »
Now, heated clothing I would make an exception for, as much of it is in the 100 to 300 watt range, which of course represents a huge hit on a 170 to 230 watt charging system.  So my advice?  Limit heated clothing to heated gloves and small vest, and avoid adding lights unless they're LED.

Mike,

Thanks for the info and I agree with you that the stock system is in general fine for most types of riding. Of course you are lucky in the West coast to have all-year round good weather for riding and maybe where you there is less traffic to get stuck in. However in the Northeast (Boston for me), traffic is a constant issue and so a 550 idling around town with headlight always on (required in Mass.) during the summer...may have an issue. In addition people like me like to ride for as much of the year of possible and riding for an hour plus anything less than 35F requires heated gear (I have for years tried the alternative and believe me a heated jacket/gloves make all the difference. As you note the stock CB750 charging system dosent have the extra capacity for a Gerbing jacket and gloves and a small vest will not be sufficient below 32F (in my experience).

I think the great thing about Anders upgrade is that it allows all of the above to be possible plus extra so that there is no potential running issues with the bike. Its not for everyone and will likely be an expensive add on only for those that will be keeping their bike long term and riding in charging-challenging conditions but I will definitely welcome it to allow me to ride in comfort and safely (having rode 1200 miles in 32F weather over 2 days with no heated gear I know its possible but I wouldnt want to do it again ;)). And riding in a wet cold Scottish winter is no picnic either (but if you like to ride any weather is just a challenge).

I hope you stick around and continue to share your knowledge and offer up discussion.

cheers
Andy
Now, heated clothing I would make an exception for, as much of it is in the 100 to 300 watt range, which of course represents a huge hit on a 170 to 230 watt charging system.  So my advice?  Limit heated clothing to heated gloves and small vest, and avoid adding lights unless they're LED.

Mike,

Thanks for the info and I agree with you that the stock system is in general fine for most types of riding. Of course you are lucky in the West coast to have all-year round good weather for riding and maybe where you there is less traffic to get stuck in. However in the Northeast (Boston for me), traffic is a constant issue and so a 550 idling around town with headlight always on (required in Mass.) during the summer...may have an issue. In addition people like me like to ride for as much of the year of possible and riding for an hour plus anything less than 35F requires heated gear (I have for years tried the alternative and believe me a heated jacket/gloves make all the difference. As you note the stock CB750 charging system dosent have the extra capacity for a Gerbing jacket and gloves and a small vest will not be sufficient below 32F (in my experience).

I think the great thing about Anders upgrade is that it allows all of the above to be possible plus extra so that there is no potential running issues with the bike. Its not for everyone and will likely be an expensive add on only for those that will be keeping their bike long term and riding in charging-challenging conditions but I will definitely welcome it to allow me to ride in comfort and safely (having rode 1200 miles in 32F weather over 2 days with no heated gear I know its possible but I wouldnt want to do it again ;)). And riding in a wet cold Scottish winter is no picnic either (but if you like to ride any weather is just a challenge).

I hope you stick around and continue to share your knowledge and offer up discussion.

cheers
Andy

Andy, thanks again for the kind words.  Love your signature!  Neat collection and use history!
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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2013, 02:41:11 PM »
So is there a way to do something similar for a 550?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2013, 02:55:06 PM »
Old Fart, you may or may have not noticed that most of the guys interested in these charging systems are using , or wanting them for high performance applications, that may put it in to a better context for you.

I don't mind adequate in my automobiles....on my bikes I have a different philosophy. Thus Ohlins, titanium exhausts, power commanders, FCR carbs, A/F meters, billet blocks etc etc.
 

+1

All 3 of my builds would benefit from a more consistent charging system, especially my 1000cc fuel injected bike, the weight of the stock system is of concern as well, so while i see your point, i think most of us already know that for unmodded bikes, the stock charging system is just adequate. Now how about letting this get back on track so we don't have to go fishing to find information in the thread......   8)
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Offline scottly

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #167 on: May 13, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »
Just turn the regulator up and you will have plenty of juice to handle the usual stuff.  (I have a booklet on my website about this.). 
I'm sorry, but you cannot just "turn the regulator up" and increase the output of the alternator at low RPMs. The stock regulator gives full field current until the output of the alternator matches/exceeds the demand, at which point the regulator lowers the field current to prevent boiling the battery from excessive voltage.
(Sorry Anders, for continuing the thread-jack. ;))
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2013, 02:39:23 PM »
Just turn the regulator up and you will have plenty of juice to handle the usual stuff.  (I have a booklet on my website about this.). 
I'm sorry, but you cannot just "turn the regulator up" and increase the output of the alternator at low RPMs. The stock regulator gives full field current until the output of the alternator matches/exceeds the demand, at which point the regulator lowers the field current to prevent boiling the battery from excessive voltage.
(Sorry Anders, for continuing the thread-jack. ;))

I wasn't going to continue, but I just have to disagree here.  You put an ammeter in the system, turn the screw up, and the maximum current to the battery will indeed increase, at max rpm.  At idle?  Probably not.  But charge is not checked at idle.  More importantly, turning in the screw increases the percent of time the vibrating point system allows full fielding, resulting in increased average charge.  Let's continue this either off-line or in a new thread to keep the admins happy.   :D
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 02:45:38 PM by oldfart »
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Offline anders288

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2013, 06:15:10 PM »

   The temp was 45 when I got up today so I put on all my heated gear jacket liner , pants liner, socks and gloves. Turned the temp all the way up handled them no problem.
 I have put over 200 miles on the new system and it has performed flawlessly.
 
     Now it's time to rant. First off I have never said the stock alternator was junk. The topic of this thread is Alternator Up Grade 32amps not alternator repair. When I design something I make a list of design criteria and some thing are subjective I feel that any charging system that discharges at idle is barely adequate. My preference is more than
adequate. And that was the first thing I listed for the design criteria.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2013, 06:22:20 PM »
And the simple fact that people are lining up to get a kit is a good enough endorsement for it in my eyes.... ;)
I now don't have to worry about HID light conversions and led's trying to save power so i can run a fuel pump....  Perfect...
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2013, 07:09:17 PM »
Anders, I have no argument with you.  Now that I understand the criteria, more heated clothing watts than I would ever have thought practical, you have a good point.  For that use, the stock system could be interpreted as "inadequate."
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Offline scottly

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2013, 07:23:56 PM »
Just turn the regulator up and you will have plenty of juice to handle the usual stuff.  (I have a booklet on my website about this.). 
I'm sorry, but you cannot just "turn the regulator up" and increase the output of the alternator at low RPMs. The stock regulator gives full field current until the output of the alternator matches/exceeds the demand, at which point the regulator lowers the field current to prevent boiling the battery from excessive voltage.
(Sorry Anders, for continuing the thread-jack. ;))

I wasn't going to continue, but I just have to disagree here.  You put an ammeter in the system, turn the screw up, and the maximum current to the battery will indeed increase, at max rpm.  At idle?  Probably not.  But charge is not checked at idle.  More importantly, turning in the screw increases the percent of time the vibrating point system allows full fielding, resulting in increased average charge.  Let's continue this either off-line or in a new thread to keep the admins happy.   :D
If you insist that I prove to you why you are wrong, please feel free to start a new thread. ;)
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2013, 07:13:19 AM »
I'm game.  New thread started.
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Offline bambuhiphop

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Re: Altenator Up Grade 32amps
« Reply #174 on: June 25, 2013, 12:54:29 PM »
Any updates on the road testing guys? I have a feeling I am going to need something like this for my 550 later this year...
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