Topic: What's the difference in these regulators?

[aggiepike]

still working on my charging issue w/ the bike, but I've narrowed it down to the regulator. If this doesn't work perhaps you guys will see my bike on the for sale section later. Anyhow, I've looked through the posts and didn't find anything explaining the difference in the two.

I have a K1. this new to me regulator is from a later model (don't know exact year) CB750 as well. what was green is now blue and it has stamped on it 408 not 310. If my regulator is the issue w/ no charging and this is indeed a good regulator. Is it as simple as putting this one in and then following the testing procedure of starting up the bike and locking throttle at 4k? Or am I going to create another issue by using this one?

Here's a pic to show what I am talking about.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Not sure about the differences. Sounds like one is just newer.

It's frustrating, huh?! Are you running stock coils and ignition?

[scottly]

still working on my charging issue w/ the bike, but I've narrowed it down to the regulator.

Please tell us how you came to this conclusion?

[Vinhead1957]

Never give up. The reward will be in the solution

[aggiepike]

still working on my charging issue w/ the bike, but I've narrowed it down to the regulator.

Please tell us how you came to this conclusion?

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.0

I followed the above and the multitude of other posts about this issue as well as the shop manual that I have on the procedures for testing it. I've replaced the rectifier with a new one from OMP. My last effort before I got the other regulator was pulling the old reg. off moved the adjustment screw in more to see if I could just make it charge or do something different than what it had done. That did nothing. At 4k + RPM my voltage only jumped about .25v compared to what it was at idle about 12.5-7 if i recall. Based on that I came up with the conclusion my regulator is shot. So got a new one.

What do you think?

[aggiepike]

Not sure about the differences. Sounds like one is just newer.

It's frustrating, huh?! Are you running stock coils and ignition?

So no difference just newer?

Yes stock ignition and coils. Why do ask that?

And yes frustrating but it's all worth it. I'm really not going to sell it just being sarcastic.

[aggiepike]

Never give up. The reward will be in the solution

appreciate it. I'm figuring it out and definately rewarding.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Just trying to narrow down your problem as Scottly and I do not think you have a regulator problem, do we Scottly?! It can happen but it's not likely.

My question has eliminated 2 possibilities as aftermarket ignition (depends on which) and aftermarket coils can suck more power from your system thus keeping the voltage lower. I was running Dyna III ignition and Dyna 3ohm coils and could barely break 13+ volts while my battery ran down unless I was on the road and making more than 12.6V.

Next question - what headlight are you running? Forgot to ask.. If you think it could have been your problem then why did the Oregon rectifier NOT solve your problem? Is it a rect or a reg/rect?

Next I'll focus on your ignition switch but not yet. One or 2 things at a time please.....LOTS of current runs through there.  And once we've gotten these easy things out of the way then we'll go to your output on your alternator unless Scottly thinks of something else first?! We'll also ask about your rectifier to make sure half of it's eliminating the A of the A/C thus making DC and that the other half is allowing ALL the DC through.

Forgot to answer about the 'no difference?' question. I did not cross reference regulator part numbers. If one is a superceded part number for the other then it's been deemed an updated suitable replacement. I use http://www.motogrid.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=HOM to cross reference parts. Try it and see what you come up with. Get your earlier part number and plug it in on the bottom right to see what you come up with.
 

[scottly]

Regulators can either undercharge or overcharge when they don't work correctly. If your problem is undercharging, the first test I would do is measure the voltage on the white reg terminal with the ignition on, and the motor not running. It should be the same as the voltage on the black terminal, which should be about 1/2 volt lower than what is measured at the battery + terminal. All measurements are with the black meter lead connected to ground. 

[aggiepike]

Next question - what headlight are you running? Forgot to ask.. If you think it could have been your problem then why did the Oregon rectifier NOT solve your problem? Is it a rect or a reg/rect?

Next I'll focus on your ignition switch but not yet. One or 2 things at a time please.....LOTS of current runs through there.  And once we've gotten these easy things out of the way then we'll go to your output on your alternator unless Scottly thinks of something else first?! We'll also ask about your rectifier to make sure half of it's eliminating the A of the A/C thus making DC and that the other half is allowing ALL the DC through.

Forgot to answer about the 'no difference?' question. I did not cross reference regulator part numbers. If one is a superceded part number for the other then it's been deemed an updated suitable replacement. I use http://www.motogrid.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=HOM to cross reference parts. Try it and see what you come up with. Get your earlier part number and plug it in on the bottom right to see what you come up with.

Thanks for all the info Jerry and help.

Here's the answers to your questions.

regular headlight from the parts store. I think it is a sylvania. it is a 55/60 watt headlight. I've read on here about headlights causing an issue if it is rated above 50/55, which this one is. But here is where that doesn't make sense on my bike at least. I've had that head light on there since I got it and the PO did too and there was never a charging issue. Also I can turn it off completely so there shouldn't be a drain. Unless I'm missing it completely I don't think that's the issue. Thoughts?

I got the OMP rectifier only the rectifier not the reg/rec. combo. because the one I had was shot. I came to that conclusion by using the multimeter and the steps outlined in the FAQ's I had a previous post on here that I should have put all this info on but didn't think about it before I went this route. Now it's a little late to turn back. Here's the post just in case that shines some more light. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=117037.0
To sum it up. Bike was fine, there was a puff of smoke when I went to start it from the left side of the bike. Since then I've been chasing the problem. After diagnosing issues I've come to believe it is the regulator. More thoughts?

I looked on motogrid and it appears that the regulators are the same through the years. Thanks for that link it's a good easy one to search. It's now saved in my favs.

I'm all ears. I have the weekend and ready to work. Thanks for the help

[aggiepike]

Regulators can either undercharge or overcharge when they don't work correctly. If your problem is undercharging, the first test I would do is measure the voltage on the white reg terminal with the ignition on, and the motor not running. It should be the same as the voltage on the black terminal, which should be about 1/2 volt lower than what is measured at the battery + terminal. All measurements are with the black meter lead connected to ground.

As soon as I get home I'll run through this and post the numbers. thanks for the help.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Process of elimination. Getting rid of the more obvious/usual things. Check headlight bulb off the list. The headlight switch is a good thing for diagnostic testing, kinda like a before and after thing. Low voltage with it on or off. Move on.

Regulator replaced so it SHOULD be good whether the old one was or not. Solid state should work better than mechanical so that's one upgrade to check off your list. Too bad you didn't go ahead and get the combo unit while you were at it. On to the rectifier. Puff of smoke left side. Check your wiring over there and see if you have some melted wiring. Look at all of them. I've seen the rectifier wiring melt on mine. Hoping you've found the instructions for checking the rectifier. Can't spout it off the top of my head. Scottly probably can though. It's a diode check thing. Continuity check. 6 of 'em if I remember. 3 should let voltage through and 3 should not. It's those 3 that do not let voltage through that turn the ALTERNATING current into direct current by eliminating the ALTERNATING component. This is where my suspicions now lie. If none of them let voltage through it's time for a new rectifier. This is off the top of my head so I could be telling you backwards about which way the current flows.

In between the regulator and rectifier lies the alternator components and there are 2 pieces there to check if the reg and rect pan out good. The regulator regulates the current going to the alternator telling it produce or not produce current by increasing/decreasing the power to the alternator thus exciting the field to produce more output. Have you checked the continuity of the field coil and the 3 alternator windings (yellow wires)? 

Check that and we'll go from there. Any ideas/thoughts/corrections Scottly?

(I'm at work so I do not have access to any info. Hoping my memory is correct)

[74750k4]

It really sounds like a wiring fault, not a component failure. Puff of smoke...

One thing you can check is the grounding. If you lose the field coil ground, (the green from three wire bundle, connected to the REG, on the stock harness) you cannot energize the field coil. Ensure that it is grounded. Check the ground connection to the frame (green wire). Make sure that ring connector is bright, shiny, tight, and the green wire unburned.
Puff of smoke...?  You need to find where that came from... scary.
Check the white wire (of the 3 wire bundle) resistance to ground (keyswitch off). You should read approximately 7 ohms on your DVM, through the field coil to ground. Any higher reading is a bad connection.  No matter how good everything else is, if you don't read 7 ohms, you'll never get proper alternator output.

[aggiepike]

Regulators can either undercharge or overcharge when they don't work correctly. If your problem is undercharging, the first test I would do is measure the voltage on the white reg terminal with the ignition on, and the motor not running. It should be the same as the voltage on the black terminal, which should be about 1/2 volt lower than what is measured at the battery + terminal. All measurements are with the black meter lead connected to ground.

As soon as I get home I'll run through this and post the numbers. thanks for the help.

Here are the numbers.

Battery Voltage
Ignition off: 12.44
Ignition on: 11.98

Reg.
White: 11.55
Black: 11.65

What do you say?

thanks

[scottly]

Now, turn off the ignition switch. Disconnect the white wire from the regulator, and measure the resistance from the white wire to ground. As 74750k4 stated, it should be around 7 ohms. (the white wire must be removed from the regulator for this test, as there are other loads connected to the black wire, such as the oil pressure light, ignition coils, neutral light)

[aggiepike]

Okay measured as out lined by 747. reading is 7.2-7.3. Is that too high or is that good?

[scottly]

Sounds good, as well as the reg readings. I don't believe the supply side of the charging system is at fault.
Now, reconnect the white wire. Turn the ignition and headlight on, and measure the voltage with the meter red lead connected to a screw or the engine case, and the black lead connected directly to the battery - terminal. I mean the lead post that is part of the battery, not the wires or the bolt. Make sure you get a good connection to the engine.

[aggiepike]

0.00 hope that's good. thanks

[scottly]

0.00 hope that's good. thanks

Too good. Re-check your meter connections, especially the one at the motor. I usually have to dig the point of the meter probe in and wiggle it around a bit. The heads of the screws are usually where I test, since it's easy to keep the probe in the center of the cross.

[aggiepike]

0.00 hope that's good. thanks

Too good. Re-check your meter connections, especially the one at the motor. I usually have to dig the point of the meter probe in and wiggle it around a bit. The heads of the screws are usually where I test, since it's easy to keep the probe in the center of the cross.

Dang same thing. 0.00. We are talking measuring voltage w/ the 12v reading correct? Not ohms?
just in case i measured that too. Here's what I got on ohms. Ignition on headlight on: 8.8 Ignition off: 0.1

[scottly]

Sounds like your ground is OK, and your regulator and field are OK. As far as the charging system, check the stator coils and wiring. The sparks and smoke when you push the starter button may or may not be related to the charging issue, but right now I'm thinking they are unrelated.?

[aggiepike]

Sounds like your ground is OK, and your regulator and field are OK. As far as the charging system, check the stator coils and wiring. The sparks and smoke when you push the starter button may or may not be related to the charging issue, but right now I'm thinking they are unrelated.?

Okay. thank you for all the help, very much appreciated. I've disconnected the starter push button behind the headlight and just going to run it kick only for now.. I'll pick up in the morning. thanks again.