Author Topic: CB 550 carb question  (Read 3042 times)

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Offline Ghostbuster

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CB 550 carb question
« on: February 12, 2013, 09:22:08 AM »
Hi there, sorry for making this thread but my head is still spinning over this issue :)

I have a CB550 K year 1975 4-4 exhaust. The bike was running way way rich unless it got a lot of throttle. So I went and overhauled the carbs with new needles, and the "pipe" the needles run in, I also changed the main jet (the little round fitting) and idle jets.

When I got the needles out the C-clip was in grove no. 4 from the top. I thought: problem solved; it should be the middle. After I had assembled and Installed the carbs I found some info on the internet saying that grove 4 was the right?

I have also read somewhere that grove 4 was only an American setting, is this true?? I'm a little afraid to run too lean too, are there any possibility that grove 3 can damage the engine?

It's hard for me to say if the bike ran rich because the needles was worn or because of the clip setting?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:23:41 AM by Ghostbuster »

Offline dave500

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 11:50:32 AM »
did you use a keyster carb kit?

Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 01:09:47 PM »
No, all parts came with honda logo :)

Offline dave500

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 01:10:32 PM »
you mean a kiehin logo?thats half the battle solved,whats the air filter like?

Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 01:23:56 PM »
My new parts were bought as "genuine" the new jets and needles came in bags with red honda logos on them. The air filter is stock but new.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 03:30:48 PM »
ignition settings are all up to scratch?you wont run excessively lean in the middle slot.

Offline chickenman_26

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 06:16:35 PM »
The bike was running way way rich unless it got a lot of throttle. So I went and overhauled the carbs with new needles, and the "pipe" the needles run in,
That should cure the rich off-idle and midrange. Those carbs are notorious for wearing out the needle jet set (needle and "pipe") which results in them running very rich. Same for the 750s that run that style carb. No amount of jet changing, mixture screw tweaking, or float level changes will cure the issue. You did the job the right way.

Stu
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Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 09:34:34 AM »
Hi again, thanks for all the feedback, what a nice forum  8)

#5
Yes I have been fine tuning ignition and syncronisation

#6
Glad to hear that, what do you think about me clipping the jet needle in grove 3 instead of 4?

Does any of you know if it is true, that the bike came with the needle in grove 3 i Europe, I remember reading it somewhere but can't find it again  :-[

Offline XLerate

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 11:11:20 AM »
It's admittedly difficult with today's fuel but I'd suggest you at least take a stab at reading the plugs. That should get you ball park. You could even post pics of the plugs for others to judge condition.

You can shut engine off under different conditions and read plugs per each, such as WOT, mid-range etc. Like I say, not what it used to be but still gives a decent idea of what's going on in the combustion chambers.

Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 11:14:42 AM »
Thanks, I'll definately do that, I'm waiting for spring, and wanted to figure out if I did something wrong, that I might aswell fix before spring :)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 12:36:21 PM »
These normally run rich at idle (has to for engine pickup when slides are lifted).
Of course choke operation will soot up spark plugs, too.

To clean the plugs the engine need cruise power temperatures in the chamber.  Simple RPM increase while stationary is not enough.

The standard clip position for the K model with early carbs is the fourth position from the top.  All mine were set there and ran well.
Prolonged idle and min power settings does tend to soot the plugs.

If you insist the 3rd position works better for you , be sure to check the plugs after a good high speed cruise with the engine as hot as you can get it.


Also think of this, the engine is air cooled.  However, part of the cooling is done with the fuel entering the chamber.  Part of the mixture setting task is to keep the chambers cool enough when the engine in run in hot weather with little air flowing over the fins.  If you set the mixture for stoichiometric, when engine is cold and producing little or no power, it will be too lean in hot weather traffic and full power usage.

Air cooled engine have no means of stabilizing the retained heat of the engine, yet the cooling fins must be adequate for the engine to survive in temperature extremes.  This means there is a whole range of temps where the engine is actually over cooled.  And, not many designers assume a motorcycle will be operated in near freezing conditions as the norm.  And recall, part of the engine chamber cooling (the source of 80% of the engines heat source) is from the fuel mixture ratio.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 09:12:22 AM »
Thanks for all the info, I have rediscovered where i read that clip no. 4 from the top was an USA-thing (atleast for the cb 500). It was actually on this forum  :D   :

It is mentioned in reply #3  in this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=109137.0

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 10:42:35 AM »
Thanks for all the info, I have rediscovered where i read that clip no. 4 from the top was an USA-thing (atleast for the cb 500). It was actually on this forum  :D   :

It is mentioned in reply #3  in this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=109137.0

The Cb500 that Delta has confused you with, refers to those in Europe that have the 649 carbs.  These carbs require an inlet flow restrictor as pictured below and also have much smaller (#78?) mains, rather than #100 for the American model 627 carbs that do not employ the inlet restrictor.

Is is not a USA vs European thing.  It is a rest-of-the-world vs some small portion of Europe who's government import officials demanded an inlet restrictor be added to the bike.  The deciding factor for carb setting is that inlet restrictor and how the carbs are set up internally to compensate for that component.

If you have a Dutch version of the CB500 with 649 carbs and restrictor, then follow his advice.  If you have an American model with 627 carbs, stock motor, air filter, and exhaust, then your bike should run properly with American settings.  ...Or, there is something broken which needs a return to factory specification.


Do tell us why you think your bike is running "rich".  What were the symptoms you identified that led you to that diagnosis?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 12:47:47 PM »
Thanks for the info, well I guess it was a mistake to go for grove 3 then. I still think ill give it a go when spring comes. I have assembled the bike and changing needle position isn't very easy without removing the carbs.  I'll pay good attention to my spark plugs. I'll maeby try a colder type spark plug now.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 01:03:04 PM »
Quote
Those carbs are notorious for wearing out the needle jet set (needle and "pipe") which results in them running very rich.
First time I hear this. Certainly not my experience with similar old style carbs (500).
Quote
The Cb500 that Delta has confused you with, refers to those in Europe that have the 649 carbs.  These carbs require an inlet flow restrictor as pictured below and also have much smaller (#78?) mains, rather than #100 for the American model 627 carbs that do not employ the inlet restrictor.
Ok, this is about CB500s. The models equipped with the 649A carbs were sold (by the tens of thousands) in Germany, Holland, Swiss, Italy and probably Austria. The 500 for UK and France had the 627B carbs as in USA. From documentation (Honda France) I know that models for France (627B!) had clip in troisième ecran or third groove). Maybe Bryanj remembers what they were in in the UK.
Quote
Is is not a USA vs European thing.  It is a rest-of-the-world vs some small portion of Europe who's government import officials demanded an inlet restrictor be added to the bike.  The deciding factor for carb setting is that inlet restrictor and how the carbs are set up internally to compensate for that component.
I have no knowledge of government demands and as far as I know there weren't any. My guess is that Honda thought it wise to protect the air filter element better against water ingress and compensated by adjusting the idle air screws to 1 turn out or even 1/8 less. Contrary to popular believe this does influence mixture in the high some. I've witnessed this effect on sustained hispeed Autobahnrides.   
I do not know of any restricting by the socalled air duct. Test results show that the models with duct perform equally good as models sold elsewhere. Not only have I experimented with #100 main jets, so did the Germans. It was a dissapointment no matter with or without the airduct. All stock riders went back to #78. Last summer, having the needle clips in 4th position, I've experimented with airscrews out 2 turns. Again not good.
I don't trust that American Honda booklet. Have the feeling they confused 500 and 550 or maybe they wanted a lean idle.
For your 550 K(!) model I'd consult the Honda Workshop Manual and they advise 4th groove and 1 1/2 turn out +/- 3/8.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:39:42 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 02:51:46 PM »
Imagine a 3 inch dia. pipe 4 ft long.  Cap both ends and then apply a low pressure (vacuum) source to one end, in some amount of time, the internals of the pipe will equalize pressure everywhere inside the pipe until it equals the vacuum applied to it.  (Assumes the pipe will not collapse from intense pressure.)

Now put a pin hole in the opposite end of the pipe from the vacuum source.  The pin hole will begin to equalize pressure on both sides of it until they are equal.  If one maintains the low pressure source at one end, it will establish a flow of material completely dependent on the viscosity of the fluid, the size of the orifice, and the pressure differential across the orifice.  A large orifice will equalize pressure faster than a small orifice, assuming we hold the vacuum source constant, the supply pressure constant, and don't change the viscosity of the fluid to and from the pipe.  See also:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83904.msg945765#msg945765

This is the physics explained.  For the CB500, the vacuum source is the engine cylinder, the fluid is the air ingested and any change in the cross sectional area of the inlet duct is an orifice.

To limit he increasing speeds and HP from engines, NASCAR mandated a restrictor plate inserted in the inlet duct path.  Using well-know orifice technology  this effectively limited the engine output capability on all the normally aspirated engines allowed in the race, and the top speeds of the cars all plateaued.

To suggest that the inlet restrictor has no effect on how the engine runs, defies the laws of physics.  And, any testing that "proves" otherwise must be technically flawed or intentionally misleading, imo.

I further maintain that there is something different about 649 carbs internally, from the 627 carbs beyond the main jet size and needle position and idle setting, to allow it to operate with that restrictor plate.  Which is why simply changing jets/adjustment in 649s and removing the restrictor inlet does work the same as using 627 and no inlet restrictor.  I fully expect that using jets and settings for the 627 carb would result in failure, as well.

If trust is an issue, I don't trust any test results on models with 649 carbs, as being in any way applicable to users of the 627 carb.  At least until it is known exactly what the difference is between the two set up types.  I don't have access to 649 carbs to check them myself, as they are mostly irrelevant to Cb500 users in most locales in world.

If you are happy with your variant, fine by me.  Just don't tell me that adjustments are the same for all.  The physics simply do not support it, regardless of what popular opinion agrees upon.  Next we will learn that the speed of light is different in Germany, Holland, Swiss, Italy and probably Austria, from what the rest of the world experiences. /jk  ;D ;D

It occurs to me that "where mandated" and "where sold" may be two different issues, and may have been a methodology used by Honda to market a specific model in more than just one small marketplace.  For example, let's say you wanted to sell into the Swiss marketplace that has special importation requirements, but the low production number don't make economic sense for a model only sold there.  If you could market the same machine in several other market outlets, the economics of volume purchases could make this feasible rather than ignore completely the small market that has a demand for something slightly different from your main production model that it sold everywhere in the world.

I do know that there is a county that requires special licensing based upon engine displacement, with the break point at 500cc.   Ergo, we have a CB500 K3 and a Cb550 K3, same bikes, different displacement.  However, I expect that the CB500 K3 was sold into more that just the countries that had that 500cc break point written into law.

Oh well.  We get to do whatever we want to our machines.  Doesn't matter if it makes sense or not.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 05:43:07 AM »
Quote
This is the physics explained. For the CB500, the vacuum source is the engine cylinder, the fluid is the air ingested and any change in the cross sectional area of the inlet duct is an orifice
But – sigh, and not the first time - we talk GASSES here, not fluids. Air is a gas and so is the froth inside the venturi. Gasses physically behave differently than solid fluids. Not that I know much about it, but differences in lengths, shapes of inlet tracts, venturis, jets do matter. That's why your 'simple physics' repeated over and over again (implicitily assuming we dumbo's don't know) is not enough to answer.

Quote
To limit he increasing speeds and HP from engines, NASCAR mandated a restrictor plate inserted in the inlet duct path. Using well-know orifice technology this effectively limited the engine output capability on all the normally aspirated engines allowed in the race, and the top speeds of the cars all plateaued
We didn't have a NASCAR. In Germany for insurance reasons they had 27HP learner versions of some bikes like the CB400 (not the 500) and 50HP versions of the CB650, beside the normal unrestricted versions (37 resp 63HP). Those bikes had restrictor plates right at the back of the carbs. Now that is restricting.

Quote
To suggest that the inlet restrictor has no effect on how the engine runs, defies the laws of physics. And, any testing that "proves" otherwise must be technically flawed or intentionally misleading, imo.
Notice that you assume that the airfilteropening on US 500models match exactly the max. required need at WOT. Then - but only then - it's logic to deduct that the air duct is restrictive. I am not there at all and my Dynojet results are proof, together with others. If the air duct was restrictive my bike never could have reached 185km/h which is exactly the 500s theoretical top speed (never reached on the road ofcourse). When I was at the dynostand, the operator also showed me results of the other 500s that were kept in the machines memory. Then there are the testresults in Germany that run parallel.

Quote
I further maintain that there is something different about 649 carbs internally, from the 627 carbs beyond the main jet size and needle position and idle setting, to allow it to operate with that restrictor plate. Which is why simply changing jets/adjustment in 649s and removing the restrictor inlet does work the same as using 627 and no inlet restrictor. I fully expect that using jets and settings for the 627 carb would result in failure, as well.
That could be the case. When many years ago, I confronted the old mechanic I've cited before with this odd difference in jetting, he said he wasn't sure venturis of the 627B and 649A were the same shape. Neither am I but to be honest I doubt they differ. What I do know for sure is that an airscrew opening of two turns out for the 500 is only found in that American booklet and NOT in any genuine Honda document. Intriguing isn't it?
You keep calling the air duct a restrictor. What do you know of the size of its opening? What do you know of the effects of the netscreen on models without airduct? Differences in turbulence? Maybe Honda discovered a better way, who knows? It would not have been the first time they've altered the length of the inlet tract to change characteristics. If I'd limit myself to your representation of physics (always accompanied by the epitheton 'simply') no evolution in this field would ever be possible, none whatsoever.

Quote
If trust is an issue, I don't trust any test results on models with 649 carbs, as being in any way applicable to users of the 627 carb. At least until it is known exactly what the difference is between the two set up types. I don't have access to 649 carbs to check them myself, as they are mostly irrelevant to Cb500 users in most locales in world.
Agreed. Furthermore the influence of the small (idle) jetlike opening just before the gasslides (engineside) is still not known fully to me. But influence there is.

Quote
If you are happy with your variant, fine by me. Just don't tell me that adjustments are the same for all. The physics simply do not support it, regardless of what popular opinion agrees upon. Next we will learn that the speed of light is different in Germany, Holland, Swiss, Italy and probably Austria, from what the rest of the world experiences. /jk
 
Why being sarcastic? Speed of light is the same overhere as elsewhere as any engineer knows and I seem to remember you were an engineer. But fluids and gasses have their own physics and practically all motors run worse in the US due to their opinion on jetting (I couldn't believe the poor driveability of my 1100 Goldwing). Then there are other variables. Quality of gasoline is one. Countries like Germany, Holland, Switzerland and Italy always had the best, but specs differ even between neighbouring countries like Germany and Holland. I've heard back in those days the importer of Suzuki citing a letter from Suzuki, Japan complaining: if only you overthere could settle on the same quality of gasoline, that would make things a lot easier for us.
Then this. My very first question in this forum was exactly on this subject. I was puzzled by this difference in jetting and only after doing all the homework possible, I dared to ask this forum, hoping to learn more. Well, I'm certainly not going to learn it from you. Don't feel bad about it, you're only human.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 11:52:28 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 08:12:16 AM »
Hi again, thanks for the info, I'm learning alot  :)

#Deltarider:

Quote
Ok, this is about CB500s. The models equipped with the 649A carbs were sold (by the tens of thousands) in Germany, Holland, Swiss, Italy and probably Austria. The 500 for UK and France had the 627B carbs as in USA. From documentation (Honda France) I know that models for France (627B!) had clip in troisième ecran or third groove). Maybe Bryanj remembers what they were in in the UK.

Sorry if this is an odd question, but do you know if the needles are the same in a CB500 and a CB550? If they are, then the only mistake that I have made is that my CB550 now has the needle set, as if it was a France CB500  :-\

As i said earlier I'll start testing the bike with four D8EA spark plugs; now that I "accidentally" leaned the mixture in the middle range.

By the way (another odd question), how drastic a change is one grove on the needle. In my humble opinion it wouldn't be like night and day, will it?

I might add that the bike is a hobby-vehicle for me. It's going to see many small trips with a speed of max 50Mph (80km/h). No hard highway riding or anything, if this info counts for anything regarding carb tuning.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 12:03:19 PM »
Carbs 022A, 627B, 649A, 087A all share the same needle set (needle and tube) parts no. 16012-323-004. Needles have stamped on number 272304. These carbs are found on CB500, 500K1, 500K2, CB500K2[ED, F, G], CB550, CB550K1, CB550K2. Needle position may differ ofcourse.

For experimental reasons I've changed the needle clip position on my 500 from 3rd to 4th. Doesn't make a drastic change. It's a bit too rich just over idle. Pulls OK. For a perfect tune I hope to shim my needles so they effectively are halfway in between 3rd and 4th. Why? Gasoline nowadays isn't the same as in late 70s.

Carbs 069A have needle set 16012-390-004 and are found on the models CB550F, CB550F1 and CB550F2. Needles have stamped on number 273004.

Needle sets 16012-323-004 and 16012-390-004 do differ, both needles as holes (smaller in the latter)


Then this. Not even Honda is perfect. They made a mistake on p 165. of the Honda Shop Manual 500-550. You, Ghostbuster find the correct settings there. They're in the left column under CB500. And that 500 is the mistake. It should have been 550. My believe is this mistake is copied over and over again resulting in corrupt data in that American Honda booklet. So officially it is 4th groove for the 550, 3rd for the 500.
But one clip higher or lower doesn't make so much difference.

Note: Above information concerns old style Keihins only.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:17:47 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 12:22:14 PM »
we talk GASSES here, not fluids.

A gas IS a fluid.  It is usually more compressible than a liquid.  But, duct behavior interacts with fluid behavior at every point from beginning to end of duct.

"In physics, a fluid is a substance that continually deforms (flows) under an applied shear stress. Fluids are a subset of the phases of matter and include liquids, gases, plasmas and, to some extent, plastic solids."  (From Wiki)

Not that I know much about it, but differences in lengths, shapes of inlet tracts, venturis, jets do matter. That's why your 'simple physics' repeated over and over again (implicetily assuming we dumbo's don't know) is not enough to answer.
But still, you argue about things you cannot define or explain?  Physics does not operate on faith or belief, and if you can't grasp the basic principles, you are lost from the outset.  That's why I keep repeating them.  In hopes that someone will learn.

We didn't have a NASCAR. In Germany for insurance reasons they had 27HP learner versions of some bikes like the CB400 (not the 500) and 50HP versions of the CB650. Those bikes had restrictor plates right at the back of the carbs. Now that is restricting.
Nascar mandated the restrictor between carb and intake manifold, primarily for tech inspection purposes.  But, it mostly doesn't matter where the restrictor is placed in the duct.  Only that it is placed between the two pressure points, ie. the intake valve and air duct inlet.
Each restriction will have its associated pressure drop when flow is established.  For the US models that restriction is primarily the carb venturis themselves.

Notice that you assume that the airfilteropening on USmodels match exactly the max. required need at WOT.

No, I don't. The US model air filter entrance is much larger than the carb venturis even at WOT.  And, it has a much lower contribution to pressure drop along the duct path.  Your 649 restrictor makes the carb throat pressures much closer to the source vacuum level than the US models.  And, the carb throat pressure is the force that drives fuel through all the gasoline jets.  Given the same size jet orifice, more pressure differential equals more volume of of liquid transferred.  The volumetric efficiency of the engine chamber is not changed.  So, tor the same amount of air passing through the carbs, more volume of gasoline is introduced in over rich proportions, unless fuel orifice diameters are reduced.

You keep calling the air duct a restrictor. What do you know of the size of its opening?

Just scaling it from the picture.  Looks to be about an inch in diameter  I believe I've asked you that question before.  I don't recall a measured response.

The primary restrictor in the standard duct is the carb venturi, stated as 22mm, for a total intake cross sectional restriction area of 6079 mm2.  1 inc = 25.4 mm.  So the area of your restrictor plate ~2026 mm2.  That makes your restrictor about 1/3 the size of the carb venturis and the most significant restriction in the entire duct.  I'd bet that your 649 air box runs significantly closer to the vacuum at the cylinder intake valve, than any of the 627 carb air boxes.  This makes the 649 inlet duct venturi see much higher differential pressures across it, in part due to increased velocity.  No doubt the short scoop was put there to reduce the turbulence, imo.

What do you know of the effects of the gazescreen on models without airduct? Differences in turbulence?
I'm not certain what you mean by "gazescreen".  Assuming you mean the screen on the 627 airbox inlet, since the opening is about 4-5 times larger than the 649 type, the velocity is much lower, which make turbulence and the pressure drop from that way lower.  My evidence of this is that there isn't much difference in the way the engine runs with the filter box cover removed and the filter completely exposed.  Can you say that for the 649 set up?


Quote
If you are happy with your variant, fine by me. Just don't tell me that adjustments are the same for all. The physics simply do not support it, regardless of what popular opinion agrees upon. Next we will learn that the speed of light is different in Germany, Holland, Swiss, Italy and probably Austria, from what the rest of the world experiences. /jk
 


Why being sarcastic?
FYI: "/jk"  is labeling the prior passage as "a joke".  Lost in translation, I suppose.  oh well...

Well, I'm certainly not going to learn it from you.

...I wonder if you'll learn it at all.  Do seek knowledge from a source you deem worthy.  Good luck!

Until then, I will continue to warn those that experiments and details about your bike's set up, simply do not apply to the rest of the CB500/CB550 population.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2013, 12:41:25 PM »
Years ago I came here with a question. That question is still not answered. All your reactions are like: it can't be, because my physics tell me it can't be. If I deliver proof, than you have the nerve to call it flaud, if the most serious motormagazine in the world (the German Motorrad) tested the 500 gründlich then they were paid by Honda. If I point out that years later the same mag critized the 550F2s driveability, you remain silent. Anytime I point out you're not correct or precise (to be honest not very often) you react like a bitten dog.
So far I've witnessed only once you posted a question yourself. Who the ... are you?

A solid fluid is not a gas, period. Go away with your plasma and other mist. It's the same kind of mist you spread when I said that your assumption that paper filter elements once out of their plastic would loose their "fluff" within 6 months is nonsense. It's crap! How do I know? From experience since 1979. But that doesn't count for you.
I offer myself to establish correct data and the data found in that American Honda booklet is suspect to say the least and probably derives from a mistake Honda made at p 165. Needle 272304 initially was designed for the 500 and originally belongs in 3rd clip. And the airscrew (cf p 61) standard is set at 1 +/- 1/8.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 03:05:17 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 07:46:55 AM »
Sorry for this noob-question, but how much does exhaust mean to rich/lean problematic. This may be a little far-fetched, but as as soon as i got the bike i exchanged the 4-4 mufflers to four brand new ones (said Honda on the box) (probably one of the last productions I think)

And I have found someone mentioned that his bike ran a little more rich with new 4-4 mufflers, reply #6 in:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=78720.0

it seems to me that carburetor and jetting is some of the most difficult, but also interesting subject  :o

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 08:08:02 AM »
Glad we're back on the subject. With original 4 in 4 you've the best all round and you can be proud. Make sure you've mounted them correctly with copper gaskets in place. You may consult. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0 Sohron documented this with beautiful pics.
IMO no need to move away from original jetting.
Do you have any idea how many miles your bike has run?
What made you think it ran too rich?
You are aware of differences in jetting between 500K and 550K?
Have you found here or elsewhere the orginal Shop Manual and Parts List? They contain all info you need.  Honda CB500 CB550 workshop manual is here
http://www.dotheton.com/downloads/CB500-550_Manual.pdf
and the Parts List is here: http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/parts-list/parts-list-cb550 Yours is the CB550 550K1

And if you want to find out what parts are shared by the various models consult http://www.motogrid.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=HOM
Just enter the partnumber you've found in the Parts List. Very convenient.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 08:50:34 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi

Offline Ghostbuster

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 09:16:01 AM »
Well I might add some info then.

I have been using a Haynes Manual, it was here that I got the impression that the needle should be in grove 3, but when i looked again it was not specific for the 550K

My jetting is now:

Main: 100
Slow: 38

My haynes said slow: 40, but I found some info on the internet saying that it should be okay with slow 38. The slow jets i got didn't look anything like the ones i took out, but I found this link:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83057.0

Which also said that it was okay with the new longer ones. The bike idles beautifully now by the way, synconised it last week.

Regarding the bike it is a 75' K1 from USA. Extremely original condition the paint has some wear and tear but looks ok. The bike has about 14000 Miles on the clock.

It never ran like i liked anyway. The worst thing the bike did was that it died when I increased the throttle at low speeds: Let's say I ran 30Mph in the city at constant speed and gave it a little throttle then it died. When I gave it alot of throttle it accelerated. The problem was not there when the bike was ice cold, but that only lasted for 2 minutes :)

I had a mechanic clean and sync. the carbs but that didn't help much. I know that it always ran rich. Black smoke came out, the oil went from brown to black in no time. The bike even used more gas than I found "normal" (all vehicles do :) ) and black spark plugs. So I recently decided to refurbish the carbs myself.

However the bike had no problems at speeds from approx 55MPh and up, here it ran like I could accept it. This made me suspect the needles, As I have understood it, the needle controls the mid-range of throttle. And this is also why I started to look into the whole needle clip problematic. Which have proven to be interesting but also a little confusing :)


Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB 550 carb question
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 10:26:15 AM »
First of all, I'm always amazed how much changing of needle positions and floattang bending goes on in this forum. I find it hard to believe so many PO's messed with them, the more when one takes into account how low mileage often is. With your's bike mileage (true?) there's no chance needles and needle jets were worn. BTW what's the stamped on number of your carbs?
Do O-rings around the main jets seal well? You did mount them the right side up, didn't you?

What's the airscrew opening now? I suppose float height is correct.

No fouling or wettening of the airfilter element by the - on this side of the Atlantic - much hated breather system? When in doubt have the crankcase breather tube vent in the open.
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There's enough for everyone's need, not enough for anyone's greed." Mahatma Ghandi