Author Topic: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!  (Read 5592 times)

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Offline Jore

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Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« on: February 14, 2013, 04:11:14 PM »
Hi Guys,

I know it's kind of a recurring thing with these bikes, that the outer plugs get fouled and the centres not.
So thanks to a faulty kill switch I fouled all 4 spark plugs with gas. Fast forward a few days later and I used a torch to burn the carbon from the plugs off ( I didn't use sandpaper because I already messed up a set like that).  Anyway I'm trying to get the bike running again but the 2 centre piston seem to be working fine (the exhaust side is hot) the 2 outer ones don't seem to fire. If I take the cap off from the plug and say leave a 1/4 inch gap all 4 pots fire and the exhaust gets equally hot on all 4.

I'm guessing the plugs got damaged when I hit the with the torch.

I'm really lost now, but I'm guessing the plugs are bad and will need replacing.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 06:08:52 PM »
If 1 and 4 are the problem check the points set for those plugs

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 06:11:34 PM »
The dual points are one set for 1&4 the other set for 2&3

Offline scottly

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 07:16:42 PM »
I've found that sometimes the carbon fouling can be burned off with a torch, and sometimes they are fubar.
Jorge, is this 2 sets of fouled plugs now? If so, you have a carburetor problem. Ignition issues DO NOT cause carbon fouling. I have had the experience of fouling plugs due to a carburetor problem, then when the motor still did not run correctly after fixing the carb, due to the previously fouled plugs, I chased my tail for days.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 07:24:31 PM »
The aviation industry has been cleaning and reusing spark plugs for years.  It's the same spark technology.  Abrasive powder cleaning.
I can't believe the phobias being promulgated here. ::)

http://www.harborfreight.com/pneumatic-spark-plug-cleaner-32860.html
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dave500

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 10:24:31 PM »
#$%* loyd thatll be a piece of junk,just buy new bloody plugs!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 10:59:17 PM »
#$%* loyd thatll be a piece of junk,just buy new bloody plugs!

Thanks for your experienced advice.    ;)

But, I've been using one like it at the airport for about 30 years.  It's so low tech, I can't imagine even a cheap one from HF wouldn't do the job.

Cleaning and a small file to sharpen the electrode edges, and they work good as new without spending more money on spark plugs for about 5-10 reconditioning cycles.  I don't know where you get your cheap spark plugs.  But, straight economics tells me that 1 set is more economical than 10 sets.

If you want to spend more for a cleaner, you can get them from aircraft suppliers.
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/aircraft/tools/spark-plug-tools/ats-12.html
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/splugcleaner.php

Or, you can contribute to landfill by tossing plugs that could still serve perfectly well for street use with just a little more personal effort.

Cheers, ;D ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dave500

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 11:14:45 PM »
ha!im not flying with you buddy boy!we both might end up as "landfill"?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 12:14:44 AM »
ha!im not flying with you buddy boy!we both might end up as "landfill"?

Fine with me.  Your phobia is what keeps you grounded, though.  Amazing, the demons to which we hold firmly.

You really have no idea what high standards of maintenance general aviation planes are required to endure.

Best of luck to ya!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dave500

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 12:34:06 AM »
yeah but ya cant exactly just pull over and see whats wrong either!

Offline Jore

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 02:19:14 AM »
I've found that sometimes the carbon fouling can be burned off with a torch, and sometimes they are fubar.
Jorge, is this 2 sets of fouled plugs now? If so, you have a carburetor problem. Ignition issues DO NOT cause carbon fouling. I have had the experience of fouling plugs due to a carburetor problem, then when the motor still did not run correctly after fixing the carb, due to the previously fouled plugs, I chased my tail for days.

I fouled the plugs because the kill switch died and no spark would get to the plugs. I'll change sides on the condensers, if the problem follows the condenser then maybe it's an electrical thing. On the carb side mine it might be, but I find it weird that with the gap the 2 cylinders fire correctly-ish.

1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2013, 03:06:42 AM »
yeah but ya cant exactly just pull over and see whats wrong either!

Sounds like you've been subjected to a lot of hype, and/or misinformation about flying and airplanes.  There's a lot of that.  The media would rather scare you than inform you.  So, they often make "errors" in their reports. 

1.  You can land at any airport, or open field, etc., if necessary.
2.  Most aircraft engines have two plugs per cylinder.

I've only had an aircraft foul plugs once.  It was a rental training craft, that likely had many students forget to lean the engine properly.  Even then, the engine still ran, albeit with less than max power.  With proper leaning and at cruise power setting, the plugs eventually cleared themselves, max power returned, and I flew on another 200-300 miles without further incident.  ...But I kept it lean even while taxiing, whereas the book says to operate at full rich.  Experienced pilots know better, I later found out.
Anyway, routine is to do a run up check before takeoff to see if the engine will make proper RPM.  If it doesn't or the engine is misfiring on cylinders, you don't take off and return to your parking place or repair garage.

Pilots take far less risks than 90% of the driving populace.

I had a 360 CI flat four Lycoming that snapped an exhaust valve shortly after take off.  Far more severe than a single fouled plug.  The engine made a lot of noise, before chucking the valve tulip out the exhaust port, into the muffler.  The plane still flew, even if shaking lot.  Flew it back to the airport I took off from, and landed normally.  I changed pants.  And then, jumped into another plane for the scheduled flight.

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots.  But, there are no old, bold pilots.

May you find the comfort you seek.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2013, 03:09:55 AM »
but I find it weird that with the gap the 2 cylinders fire correctly-ish.

Increasing the gap raises the spark voltage, making it more "willing" to jump the electrode gap rather than shunt to a carbon trail bypass.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline stickman

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 06:17:17 AM »
If 2 plugs seem to be firing fine and 2 not, switch them around.  If the problem migrates, you have a plug problem.   
Ed Jones, Lenoir, NC
1971 CB750, 1994 Kaw police bike KZ1000

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 07:15:52 AM »
I'm going to have to agree with TT on this one. There really is no reason that a plug should become so fouled that it is unusable. If you think about it all that happens is there becomes a layer of carbon, or gas, or oil, of whatever that creates a conductive trail to the ground path. If you remove this conductive material then there is no reason why the plug should not work again. The only reason a plug should become unusable is if the electrode is eroded away, the porcelain is cracked or damaged in some way, or if the resister core has failed (if it has one).

I don't think I've ever had a plug that has fouled? At least not one that didn't clear itself?

IW

Offline Jore

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2013, 08:20:13 AM »
If the problem doesn't migrate with the plugs, what could it be?
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline stickman

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 09:13:23 AM »
 If the problem doesn't migrate with the plugs, what could it be?

Since the problem seems to be with 1-4 cylinders, then it seems you have an electrical problem and I would investigate the points and coil servicing 1-4 cylinders and all related connections.
Ed Jones, Lenoir, NC
1971 CB750, 1994 Kaw police bike KZ1000

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 09:29:09 AM »
I believe 1 and 4 use the blue wire

Offline dave500

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 12:19:49 PM »
I'm going to have to agree with TT on this one. There really is no reason that a plug should become so fouled that it is unusable. If you think about it all that happens is there becomes a layer of carbon, or gas, or oil, of whatever that creates a conductive trail to the ground path. If you remove this conductive material then there is no reason why the plug should not work again. The only reason a plug should become unusable is if the electrode is eroded away, the porcelain is cracked or damaged in some way, or if the resister core has failed (if it has one).

I don't think I've ever had a plug that has fouled? At least not one that didn't clear itself?

IW

clean them and keep them under the seat as spares.

Offline crazypj

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 02:31:15 PM »
NGK plugs have a powder as part of the seal/insulator.
It is possible to dry it out with heat.
I don't like 'sandblasting' plugs seen too many 'wet' plugs where the glass beads build up inside them (and fall out later)
It's due to inexperience of operator.
Even so, sandblasting 10mm or 12mm plugs does round off the electrodes and they are much more difficult to square up than a 14mm or 18mm plug so I don't do it
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Offline Madman9050

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2013, 03:46:10 PM »
This is simple replace the plugs  If they fire with a gap between the cap and the plug you are increasing the current through the plug I can't explain why the resistance in the plug goes up when they are gas fouled but once they do this its over a new set of plugs is only about $20 save yourself some hassle and do this first then mess with other things later be glad you don't have a Honda outboard those plugs are over $25 a peice x6
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2013, 06:51:32 PM »
resistance goes down when plugs are wet.
Having spark outside of cylinder doesn't mean you'll have a spark inside the cylinder
 BTW, you can get plugs cheper if you don't go through main dealer (especially marine dealer)
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Offline Madman9050

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 08:22:17 PM »
I'm sorry your right the resistance does go down current follows the path of fuel to ground rather than through the air. Also I was just showing how cheap a set of plugs for our bikes are compared to others out there. In my experience unexplained misfires in carbureted high performance engines especially with NGK plugs can often be solved with fresh plugs before wasting precious riding time searching for a problem
when your vision gets blurry and the white lines come together when your heart is pounding and you cant take anymore,catch another gear

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 10:52:17 PM »
The aviation industry has been cleaning and reusing spark plugs for years.  It's the same spark technology.  Abrasive powder cleaning.
I can't believe the phobias being promulgated here. ::)

http://www.harborfreight.com/pneumatic-spark-plug-cleaner-32860.html

The naysayers can say what they want but a spark plug cleaner like the one in the link has been one of the best investments (a cheap one for that matter) I ever made especially when having tuning issues. The first bike I ever messed with was my oldest sons cb350 twin, yep only 2 cyls but when we first got it running it was fouling plugs almost as fast as I could put new ones in and the cost started adding up one pair at a time. I then got myself one of those spark plug cleaners which allowed me to keep the plugs alive long enough until I figured out the problem which of course was something simple. My spark plugs still get replaced with new ones during regular maintenance but I don't jump the gun and replace them every time something goes wrong.
Scott


71 cb350 twin
77 cb750 F2
83 gl1100 Interstate

Offline dave500

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Re: Cylinders firing, but with a gap!
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 11:32:21 PM »
i'd just like to remind everyone that its not illegal to clean and reuse old fouled spark plugs,do it if you want.