Author Topic: Electronic Ignition  (Read 6901 times)

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Offline hillcountrymac

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Electronic Ignition
« on: February 25, 2013, 01:45:33 PM »
Is electronic Ignition worth the trouble?1977 CB750K

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2013, 02:29:09 PM »
It depends on your definition of trouble. I myself am using a dyna S with factory coils with no issues however there are many here that are still using the factory points/condenser with no issues either. 1 way or the other you're making a compromise and its a personal preference on which compromise suits you. Points take routine maintenance to insure your ignition is working to it's potential and it's that routine maintenance that turns some people off OR switch to electronic and have a nearly maintenance free ignition but have an ignition that may curl up and die without warning possibly leaving you stranded with no easy way home. I've been seriously thinking of pulling my dynaS in favor of Hondamans unit.
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Offline hillcountrymac

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 03:29:32 PM »
Good point I haven't had too many issues with stock.I've just heard electronic is the way to go.Great forum by the way.I'm about to cafe a 74 XL100,just for fun.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 06:36:18 PM »
I installed my Dyna III in 85'ish. I set it and forgot about it. I used 3ohm coils and together it throws (threw) one helluva spark. Did I mention set it and forget it?! Points can be fine too but I found that it may be a once a year thing. Pay someone to tune it IF YOU CAN FIND SOMEONE TO WORK ON THESE OLD BIKES. That tune up may cost you the price of your electronic ignition. Do you know how to set and time 2 sets of points? I couldn't get the hang of it back then so I made what I feel is the best upgrade I ever did, the electronic ignition. Most of my tune ups consisted of 4 spark plugs after that (as long as I didn't jack around with my carbs  ;)). I mentioned (threw), well it's in the box awaiting it's next bike build which will be soon. I replaced it with a Dyna 2000 for my 'high tech' build/restore/restomod with the different advance curves and REV LIMITER since I missed a shift and blew it up way back when. The Dyna III still works . I bypassed the Dyna S.   
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 07:04:56 PM »
I've had the Dyna S on my K4 for 2+ years, no issue. 
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline dave500

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 08:01:45 PM »
how come your from texas where everything is big but your font is smaller than a phone book type?at least it got bigger on your second post!the pamco ignition is a good american one.
http://www.cb750supply.com/products/5/electrical

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 11:06:01 PM »
All my bikes have points and it's not an issue with me.  I have no problem setting them.  The conversion cost is just to high for me for any real or perceived benefit.  I have had failures of electronic systems on other motors/vehicles but no experience with it on bikes.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 03:26:52 AM »
Maybe I did something wrong but fact is that I had to replace my points almost every season (each season 5000-9000km) during the entire 80's. I bought the complete plate just to be sure. I think it was the capacitors that usually became bad when I saw sparks from the circuit breakers.

During a holiday trip via France one contact breaker broke despite it was new for that season, max 5000km. I had to drive on 2 cylinders only to next town and Honda repair shop, appr 50km. Had unfortunately no spare with me as I should when I trusted new parts.

I have a electronic Pamco Ultimate (complete with coils) home waiting for installaton.
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
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CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 04:07:23 AM »
Quote
I bought the complete plate just to be sure.

The genuine Honda?
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 04:11:27 AM »
I dealt with points on my old CZ250 back in Czech and decided enough was enough.    For the K0 I just paid for the Ultimate Pamco - coil cables were shot too - and never missed points.

Similar situation to converting my  86CJ7 to TBI from the pathetic craperator Carter BBD - you upgrade and you never have to worry about it again.  It just runs well, period.

I am sure Hondaman solution is excellent and the best bang for the buck there is, but I like the clean install of the Pamco the best.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 04:14:16 AM »
Quote
I bought the complete plate just to be sure.

The genuine Honda?

I ordered Honda parts, but might have got different versions. Ordered them 1980-1990. Maybe there were bad versions out there then. I know that I got TEC a few times.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Mooshie

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 08:46:22 AM »
Go with Hondaman's any problems while on the road it takes literally 5 minutes to switch back to points. 
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Offline CoachDoc

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 09:46:22 AM »
Go with Hondaman's any problems while on the road it takes literally 5 minutes to switch back to points.

This would be my advice too. Very ingenious design by HM, and it works great, and like Mooshie said if there is ever any problem with it switching a few connectors puts you back on the points and you can ride home.

Offline lrutt

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 11:03:53 AM »
points will always get you home, and will work with an almost dead battery. EI won't do that.
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Offline Stoli

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 11:32:22 AM »

I thought this was informative. Source is Hondachopper.com:

www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/sohcign.html


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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 05:58:38 PM »
points will always get you home, and will work with an almost dead battery. EI won't do that.

Exactly. I have Hondaman's ignition and the timing is still spot on after 12,000 miles. If something (other than the coils) dies, I can make it go. With pointless ignition you're #$%*ed.
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Offline Stoli

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2013, 12:56:06 PM »

So, if I understand it correctly, Hondaman's ignition will overcome the inherent flaw in the SOHC's collapsing field design by increasing coil saturation time and maximizing output voltage resulting in a stronger spark?  Is that an accurate statement?

Furthermore, your points will last longer because his transistors are shouldering the current to the coils and the points are just acting like low current switches?

Therefore, his system is, in essence, a simple electronic relay?

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2013, 01:55:09 PM »
So, if I understand it correctly, Hondaman's ignition will overcome the inherent flaw in the SOHC's collapsing field design by increasing coil saturation time and maximizing output voltage resulting in a stronger spark?  Is that an accurate statement?
No. 
One, there is no inherent flaw.  It works as well today as it did when new.

Two, the coil saturation time (dwell time) is controlled by the point cam, and the point gap in both cases.  The only need for increased coil saturation time would be in very low voltage supply situations and at high RPM.  Higher than the bike's present red line.  Know that once the coil is saturated more time with current fed to the coils is just wasted and lost as heat.

Saturation is similar to pregnancy, once there, that's it, you can't be more saturated as you can't be more pregnant.

What you gain with the HM unit is consistency of function, as there is no charring of the point contacts or erosion from electrical current effects, which would alter point gap and timing functions.

Why do you feel you need "stronger spark"?  Are you increasing the spark gaps? Are you increasing compression ratio? Are you increasing red line?  Are you trying to make old worn plugs fire similar to new ones?

Furthermore, your points will last longer because his transistors are shouldering the current to the coils and the points are just acting like low current switches?
True.  The only wear item is the point rubbing block on the cam.  If you keep water out of the point area, the re-lube and adjust cycles would be about 50K miles -ish.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Stoli

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2013, 02:11:20 PM »
Why do you feel you need "stronger spark"?  Are you increasing the spark gaps? Are you increasing compression ratio? Are you increasing red line?  Are you trying to make old worn plugs fire similar to new ones?

I don't know that I need a stronger spark, but I thought I read somewhere that HMs transistorized ignition produces a stronger spark and I was wondering how it did that using the same coils. Are they referring to the fact that using the points in the stock configuration will wear more over time and eventually produce a weaker spark?

Are you saying that with new points, HMs transistorized system is no better than the stock config?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2013, 02:35:32 PM »
...I thought I read somewhere that HMs transistorized ignition produces a stronger spark and I was wondering how it did that using the same coils.
It can't, really

Are they referring to the fact that using the points in the stock configuration will wear more over time and eventually produce a weaker spark?
Yes.  Maybe weaker, but certainly timing erratic.  It's those corner cases that become important.  Low system voltage, cold engine, high starter current, cold weather, wet weather, old spark plugs, etc. ... And combinations of those.

Are you saying that with new points, HMs transistorized system is no better than the stock config?
That's my expectation.  What you are buying is consistency and less frequent attention to the point system.  That is valuable to many people.  I wouldn't mind having the HM unit on my bikes.  But, if I did it to one of mine, the others would be jealous and try to buck me off.  ;D  I'm not ready to buy ten of them to keep them all happy.  Perhaps after I thin the heard....

Cheers,

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Offline Stoli

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2013, 03:26:34 PM »

Thanks for the feedback. Some of the stuff that I read make it sound like there is some other magic involved but apparently not. Maybe some wishful thinking on my part as well. Nevertheless, if you put a lot of miles on your bike, it seems like a smart investement for $75.
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Offline Stoli

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2013, 03:33:48 PM »
FYI - This is a quote from HMs web page where he boasts a "stronger spark" :

Benefits of using this device include easier starting and less cold-bloodedness at startup, stronger spark through the entire RPM range, cleaner spark plugs, and extremely reduced points wear. In most situations, there is no need to replace your points when installing this unit, so long as the engine already runs.

Source: http://sohc4shop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=32
My Project Threads:
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Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2013, 05:02:23 PM »
The HM modification just reduces the current load on the points. The "spark" signal is provided by the points to the relay which is passing the current from the battery with heavier gauge wire to the coils.  No change in spark ! The power load is the same but it will make a steady current delivery more reliable

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2013, 06:51:08 AM »
With a transistorized ignition like the one I made years ago you might gain a bit more driveability @ low and high rpms, as there is no current lost in sparks at the breakerpoints. There is more reserve so there are probably less misses (is that the word?). The idling can be better too, as that's where breakerpoints in a conventional setup arc most. In the midrange there's not much difference if at all. The modest advantage over the whole RPMrange: transistors like in a Darlington cicuit cut current a lot faster than points and so can sling higher voltages towards the coils. Again: it only means more reserve for those near limit circumstances when the ignition has difficulties generating a good decent spark.
Transistorized ignition can be an improvement but don't expect you will notice it, whereas a set of new spark plugs...
If you really want to have a different bike, ride her at high speed for a long period and feel how much livelier the engine is afterwards, after getting rid of all the carbon inside.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 01:00:01 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Electronic Ignition
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2013, 03:49:10 AM »
Rotortiller, you are right. I've modified my post somewhat and brought it more in line with what I wrote some time ago.
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