Author Topic: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products  (Read 12275 times)

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Offline 754

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Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« on: February 26, 2013, 07:33:17 PM »
 Here it is
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 07:35:12 PM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

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73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline 754

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 07:36:19 PM »
More views..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline brandEn

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 07:47:18 PM »
Does that get used with a stock pump?

Offline 754

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 07:48:29 PM »
Yes..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 11:01:20 PM »
Are those old stock? How much oil did you have to keep in your bike?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 11:15:35 PM »
You would have to extend the pickup wouldn't you.?  Should show that to the new carbon guy, that would be awesome made out of carbon fiber.... ;D  Wadaya reckon Jerry.... 8)
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Offline johno

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 11:52:34 PM »


For my salt bike I,m using one (depending on the ambiant temp with a lockhart oil cooler.)
Most road situation they work fine, if racing  eg drag or circuit I have baffled them appropriately one way traps etc  I didnt bother with a windage tray,  had no probs so didnt bother !
johno
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Offline mec

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 07:22:18 AM »
hi,

can anybody explain the benefits of a deep sump pan to me?

merci
mec
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 09:29:51 AM »
Curious............deep-sump vs. F2 sump with more and deeper cooling fins vs. a sump from an automatic.

I think I understand the benefit of a deeper sump for straight-line racing with conventional oil.........but what about prolonged corners with minimal banking?  Tell me how a deep sump gets the same or more cooled oil to the head versus modern light-weight 'oil' from a standard sump.

 
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 09:40:59 AM »
hi,

can anybody explain the benefits of a deep sump pan to me?

merci
mec
I can't with a dry sump system. Looking at motoGP, Superbikes etc with wet systems you can see the advantage. Those pans look about 8" deep where the pick up is.
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Offline trueblue

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 01:16:41 PM »
hi,

can anybody explain the benefits of a deep sump pan to me?

merci
mec
In a dry sump engine it improves the wank factor incredibly, add some pod filters, cut off the exhaust at the end of the headers and add some handlebars that make it so you can't ride the bike for more than 5 miles without losing feeling in at least one body part.  After doing this the wank factor will be that high that if you don't pull your d!<k off completely, you will at very least end up blind with hairy palms ;D.
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 01:22:29 PM »
hi,

can anybody explain the benefits of a deep sump pan to me?

merci
mec
In a dry sump engine it improves the wank factor incredibly, add some pod filters, cut off the exhaust at the end of the headers and add some handlebars that make it so you can't ride the bike for more than 5 miles without losing feeling in at least one body part.  After doing this the wank factor will be that high that if you don't pull your d!<k off completely, you will at very least end up blind with hairy palms ;D.

Don't hold back now, tell us how you really feel ;).

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Offline johno

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 01:30:05 PM »
Trueblue, you forgot to mention electronic gauges. ;)
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Offline mec

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 01:39:08 PM »
hi,

can anybody explain the benefits of a deep sump pan to me?

merci
mec
I can't with a dry sump system. Looking at motoGP, Superbikes etc with wet systems you can see the advantage. Those pans look about 8" deep where the pick up is.

thats what i am thinking.

mec
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Offline y2kc0wb0y

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 02:06:26 PM »
Safe to say you cannot 86 the oil tank with this setup either?
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 02:10:39 PM »
Cons: It interferes with nearly all 4-1 and 4-2-1 headers

Pros: It lowers the center of gravity assuming you add an extra quart of oil that is otherwise never used

No, You cannot 86 the oil tank

Why did I buy one of these???  ??? :-\ :-[
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 03:27:58 PM by kmb69 »

Offline johno

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 03:25:30 PM »
Hi Mec,
Good point you raised, as trueblu so graciously described a lot of accessories are so people can have a point of difference, the last time I went to a race meeting with a crowd of thousands, no two people were dressed the same, logically those people have the same attitude to their toys.
 
Seeing  754 passionately enjoys posting pics of anything sohc particularly older rarer memorabilia and nostalgic comments never longer than a sentence  I assume its my responsibility to respond to your question Mech.
 
As to why am I considering using the deeper sump and oil cooler, simply temperature control.
 
I’ll make the statement that highly modified air cooled engines running on the salt for 9 miles at full load in an ambient temp of 45c or 113 F into a 15mph hot head wind .....  are NOT oil friendly, these conditions can exceed the design parameters of the best oils available reducing the margin for error in engine component tolerances and design.
 
Are there other ways to achieve the same result, yes.
Custom oil tank with fins, cooled by all the hot air from the engine, yes but not for me with lots of used hot air from the engine coming past.
Bigger oil tank volume,  yes but the longer the load that volume heats up, still behind the engine, extra 2 or 4 kg weight, not for me.
Oil cooler located in clean air, yes I like it.
A sump with approx half a litre ( pint) of extra oil and extra finning,  extra weight 1 kg,  in clear air, yes I like it.
 
I decided for my application that the cooler and the finned sump complimented the Honda dry sump system.   In the 70,s  I purchased the cooler and sump as I went through a phase of holding the bike flat for as long as the fuel tank would allow it,  as I lived in the middle of a desert it was nice to travel at a speed that made my helmet nice and quiet at 110 to 120.mph .  The difference between the two speeds was dependant on the ambient temp 25 deg C .... 120mph and 40 deg C ...110mph  these rides were mostly around 400 to 500 miles long at full throttle and apart from the dreaded head gasket weep  mechanically perfect . With the girlfriend on the back  at 40c at 110mph  after about 20 minutes the bike misfired constantly from fuel evapouration as the extra load made the engine run very hot, it was the fuel evapouration that drove me to cool the engine by the cooler and sump....... it worked , even two up full throttle for a full tank in 40c no fuel evapouration  due to the reduced air temp.
 
From an engineering perspective there is no perfect oil system, every engine powered machine,  car or bike is a series of compromises by the designer, oil systems are no exception, dry sump or wet sump options are  tools of the vehicle designer.  I love the dry sump system personally , the wet sump systems on other bikes like the Kwaka 900 used to keep me in business modifying them to stop oil surging away from the pickup.  But there are endless pros and cons to both and in the right vehicle each has its day.
 
That’s my spin on it Mec.        Heat  is probably not on you northern hemisphere blokes radar at the moment. ;D    johno
 
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Offline 754

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 03:29:34 PM »
It does not interfere with most header brands.
 It holds a bit bore oil, not a quart.
 It has more finning, and is further out into the airflow, so probably cools a bit better....

 I tried to post it quick so all the pics would be close together, I was hoping that the pics of the carb synch guage would get posted on here as well..

 I dont want to part with that pan, it will look good on my high pipe bike. And yes some of us do run an extra quart of oil at times..
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 03:34:03 PM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline kmb69

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 03:42:16 PM »
It has more finning, and is further out into the airflow, so probably cools a bit better..

If you are sloshing it around, maybe. But in Johno's flat out case, I am guessing the additional cooling he got was mainly from the oil cooler and not the deep sump. I think in Johno's case their would be very little heat convection currents. The cooler oil would tend to stay on the bottom.

With the internal and external cooling fins, there probably would be a cooling advantage if you lowered the oil pickup to get to the "cooler" oil.

Offline 754

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 04:00:22 PM »
Just how long do you think the oil is in there..I am picturing a few gallonsper minuteoil in the sump for scant seconds....
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 04:05:03 PM »
well, nice try, but considering the scavenging side of the pump in dry sump motors always has more capacity than the feed side, that extra quart is going to end in no time in the oil tank, overfilling it and lubing the rear tyre properly  ::) kewl

edit 754 beat me to it!

« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:06:47 PM by turboguzzi »

Offline 754

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 04:12:50 PM »
Extra Quart stays in the stock 750 tank..every tme I crossed the Mojave I r rannanextra quart..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 04:32:04 PM »
 I so want a deep sump for my turbo bike !!!   :o   8) 8) 8)


             

                                   
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 05:56:23 PM »
Extra quart gives dilutional factor for oil degradation meaning the oil in the system should maintain it's lubricating characteristics longer with 25% more oil.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline kmb69

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Re: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 07:44:19 PM »
I guess the point I was trying to make is the extra oil stays in the pan below the scavenge pump pickup and is never recirculated per se. The only way the deep pan would contribute in any meaningful way is if you extend the scavenge pickup lower in the pan. Yes, you might get some "deep" oil from slosh but that doesn't really represent 25% more useful oil. If you run the bike "out of oil", you will still have the extra quart in the pan. Pressure side comes from the tank not the pan.