Author Topic: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products (Read 12285 times)

@ johno:
thanx for your words.
however i am not sure if i understood all explanations. it seems, during my english lessons in school, i wasted my time designing the piston skirt length of my Puch MC50, instead of learning english.

back to lubrication:
a deep sump pan throws away most of the benefits of a dry sump lubrication. all rotating and oscillating internals of an engine splashing in oil will reduce engine power. a dsl removes all excessive oil from the engine pumping it into the oil tank. a deep sump pan will enable the engine to hold more oil within the engine......
a side effect of a dsl is better cooling. on the contra side is a more complex oiling system (oil tubes, fittings, tank) and a secondary pump.
if you want more cooling: add a cooler or even add a bigger one. position it in best place.
i doubt if a deep sum pan (with or without fins) can give you better cooling. and if, it will be not measureable. the headers nearby will cook your pan in addition to this.

its interesting the way the evolution goes. back in the 70ies or 80ies a dsl was the way to go (from a performance oriented view). today we see wet sumps in modern high performance bikes. but a closer look shows why: these wet sumps do have a sump pan looking like a upside down pyramide providing oil flow in every race condition and separating oil from the moving internals. often modern crankcases are more like two stroke crankcases, what makes it possible to create a pressure free room underneath the pistons. the ultra modern panigale does have a wet sump, however uses two oilpumps (similar our sohc pumps) for lubrication and max performance. this means, modern wet sumps are designed to have the benfits of our dry sump lubrication without their disadvantages.

so far from my technical view.

however i do understand the wish for a deep pan. it is something like a technical juwel of its time.

mec

voxonda · « **Reply #30 on:** February 28, 2013, 01:39:42 AM »

+1 mec, totally agree with you from a technical point of view, but...................................................................most of us want to stand out in the sohc crowd, and then a deep sump 'looks the bizz'.

Cheers, Rob

johno · « **Reply #31 on:** February 28, 2013, 02:48:06 AM »

I must be getting old , maybe its the first sign of senality, because I surprised at the concern raised about a 20mmm deeper sump with lots of extra cooling fins.

I dont believe it warrants the concern raised . I have used them, I havent experienced a single problem, I do believe there is a positive in reducing oil temp "full stop" and interestingly I have measured the temp, there is difference otherwise I wouldnt tolerate the extra 700 grams on mine or anyone elses race bike.

I am totally confused by the comments that the additional .6 litre oil doesnt interact with the existing oil

?

if youve ever had a look in an engine sump with perspex side that opinion would change , its like a tornado in there, thats why there is a whole industry devoted to windage trays ! Thats why wet sumps have to be so deep to keep the oil away from the tornado...... believe me the oil is just one big happy family all mixing in nicely smearing past the alloy heat sink. if your not convinced of the heat removal from a finned alloy surface from 160 degrees to a say 40 degree wind stream then try cutting off the equivelent surface area of fins from the barrels on one cylinder hold the old girl flat for awhile and see what happens , if your still skeptical i will buy you a carton of beer to reduce your anxiety. Then I will write a letter to every aircooled manufacturer like Honda , porsche, MV augusta, Ferrari, and tell them to remove the cooling fins from their sumps cause its probably doesnt work.

voxonda · « **Reply #32 on:** February 28, 2013, 03:10:31 AM »

Johno,

I also had a deep sump on my Turbo. No probs at all, it is just that I also rode it with a oem one and couldn't and still cant tell the diff. But certainly did not have problems due to the deep(er) sump. And agree that the oil will mix due to movement etc.
Only reason that I do not use it now is that I dont run a Turbo anymore and on my racebike it would interfere with the exhaust.

MRieck · « **Reply #33 on:** February 28, 2013, 07:00:34 AM »

I just use an F2 pan which has more fin area. You can increase oil capicity with a large cooler and a spin on filter.

MRieck · « **Reply #34 on:** February 28, 2013, 07:04:12 AM »

Quote from: Jerry Rxman Griffin on February 27, 2013, 05:56:23 PM

Extra quart gives dilutional factor for oil degradation meaning the oil in the system should maintain it's lubricating characteristics longer with 25% more oil.

That's why modern car engines take 7 or 8 quarts of oil. It allows for longer change intervals.

City Boy · « **Reply #35 on:** February 28, 2013, 04:39:11 PM »

Hi gang.This is what I added to both my CB1100F and CB750 for a little added oil volume.I installed a 350/400F filter housing,centre bolt,and centre bolt collar..This gains you 140ml,4.5 oz.Your header type (for clearance) will determine whether you can do this on your units.
The CB750 owes a great deal of it's longevity to the dry sump system in my view and would be seen on all of today's hot bikes if not for liquid cooling. Rock On

BLUE71TURBO · « **Reply #36 on:** March 04, 2013, 11:19:56 PM »

Quote from: voxonda on February 28, 2013, 01:21:28 AM

Maybe you have something I want??

What are ya looking for or want

voxonda · « **Reply #37 on:** March 05, 2013, 02:29:02 AM »

Quote from: BLUE71TURBO on March 04, 2013, 11:19:56 PM

Quote from: voxonda on February 28, 2013, 01:21:28 AM
Maybe you have something I want??

What are ya looking for or want

Hey Blue,

You've got PM.

bert96 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 05, 2013, 03:52:47 AM »

Quote from: MRieck on February 28, 2013, 07:00:34 AM

I just use an F2 pan which has more fin area. You can increase oil capicity with a large cooler and a spin on filter.

Does a pan from a 750 automatic fit on a k4?

Bert

bert96 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 05, 2013, 03:59:10 AM »

forget my question,i just got my answer

Bert

spiritof67 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 05, 2013, 08:40:50 AM »

Unlike most of those who posted here, I actually have a Bowman (one of the first ones - they were originally only available to International Four Owners Association members) and have ridden other machines equipped with them.

In my experience there was no drop in oil pressure at any time with the deep pan, but a noticeable drop in oil temperature. I noted as much as a 10 degree difference average between comparably maintained 750's with and without Bowman pans, and a larger difference in heavy traffic and or on very hot summer days.

Contrary to what had been posted before, the Bowman gets in the way of virtually EVERY 4 into 1 exhaust system, since it was designed to be run with the stock 4 pipe system. Please remember that the 4 into 1 was a new idea when the Bowman was released. I often thought that was the reason why they were available for such a short time. That, and the quality of the piece as compared to its price. It made most of the Honda castings look like an industrial experiment.

I doubt that there will be any running problems on the street or highway with oil pickup, etc., with the Bowman. If you properly fill the tank and check the oil fil height - which, after all, you should be doing anyway - just ride the damn bike.

Oh, and as for "wow" factor, how does that equate to something that can't be seen from any convenient viewing angle?

Spirit

754 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 05, 2013, 02:44:19 PM »

They should workwith Hooker, Jardine, ActionFours, R.C., and a lot of others. And you can probably see them on a lot of bikes, one of mine has no pipes under the motor....
Not sure what you mean about Honda castings, most are diecast, and. You have to look pretty hard to find bad ones..

If you like it and have one.. Run it..

754 · « **Reply #42 on:** March 06, 2013, 10:15:05 PM »

Here is the sync guage ad, sorry its on its side..

spiritof67 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 07, 2013, 12:03:55 PM »

754, what are the sizes and lengths of the bolts for that Bowman pan? My friends' '74K4 had to have the Bowman removed (to accomodate a Bassani 4x1..) and the bolts went missing. I'm assuming they're 6mm...?

Spirit

754 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 07, 2013, 02:11:09 PM »

Just get him to measure the holes and add 12mm or so..

spiritof67 · « **Reply #45 on:** March 21, 2013, 12:29:14 PM »

I have both of those myself....no, wait: I have two of each of those. Anybody want a lightly used Carb-Sync?

Spirit

locomonza · « **Reply #46 on:** March 21, 2013, 03:48:01 PM »

Quote from: spiritof67 on March 21, 2013, 12:29:14 PM

I have both of those myself....no, wait: I have two of each of those. Anybody want a lightly used Carb-Sync?

Spirit

Yes!!!, how much???

gschuld · « **Reply #47 on:** March 21, 2013, 05:57:43 PM »

Sure, why not. So what's the going rate on this piece of motorcycle history?

George

BLUE71TURBO · « **Reply #48 on:** March 21, 2013, 09:40:43 PM »

Motorcycle history ?? What are ya referring to Gschuld ?

cavebear · « **Reply #49 on:** March 23, 2013, 05:58:14 PM »

I put one on the turbo motor shown in my avatar. Never any oil pressure problems.

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Author Topic: Deep Sump CB 750 pan Bowman Products (Read 12285 times)