Author Topic: Caliper restoration "what to put where", pictures and index  (Read 722 times)

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Offline Viktor.J

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I've read and read, but im missing a educational "guide" of exactly where to place the grease when it comes to restoring the calipers.
Many of you may react "OH man, there's plenty of threads about that".. But that doesn't mean that there's any consistently method. 
The best is of course "twoTireds", but to be honest, I don't 100% understand which lube goes where, probably a language thing. We all have different names for the same thing and same names for different things, It's happend before and will happen again.
So hopefully this thread/question gets a good answer and can serve as a complement to "TwoTireds" great "how to calieper restoring"

Thats why....

 I've took some pictures and numbered the surfaces that I've found mentioned in various threads.
My question is, where does the silicone grease go and where does the "caliper assembly grease" go.

Since I live in Sweden and don't really have any opurtonity to buy "Dow corning high vacuum silicone grease" for a reasonable amount of money, any silicone based grease with heat resistance up to 200+ would due  ?
And any special do's and dont's regarding the "caliper assembly grease" ?


A1 = Caliper piston cylinder wall, below the gasket/o-ring/caliper seal
A2 = Caliper piston cylinder wall, over the gasket/O-ring/caliper seal
B1 = A-pad bottom wall
B2 =A-pad cylinder wall
B3 = A-caliper surface area


C1 =B-pad bottom area
C2 =B-pad cylinder wall
C3 =B-Caliper surface area


D1 = Caliper piston walls
E1 = Seat pad
F1 = A-pad piston walls
F2 = B-pad piston walls



Thought it would be good to clear this out. Hopfully you agree, thanks !
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2

Offline mark52

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Re: Caliper restoration "what to put where", pictures and index
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 05:51:31 AM »
Can't wait for a detailed answer to this one since I had the same concerns. Thanks for asking the question Viktor.
Mark

Offline flybox1

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Re: Caliper restoration "what to put where", pictures and index
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 07:07:56 AM »
Hey Viktor.
check this write up by TwoTired .... and click on the link in his post.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=104349.msg1215995#msg1215995
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline Stoli

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Re: Caliper restoration "what to put where", pictures and index
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 11:45:41 AM »
God dag Viktor,

This pic (from the thread that flybox refered you to) sums up where you want to apply the silicone grease.



As far as the assembly grease,  some recommend applying a small amount to the piston seal and others recommend just using a little brake fluid on the seal before assembling the piston.

So in your drawings, if I understand things right:

A1 - no grease. Just brake fluid will go here.
A2 - small amount of assembly lube or brake fluid between piston and seal
B1-B3: nothing on these places, although some of your silicone grease will contact B2. That would be the grease that you apply to the outer edge of the pad F1 (see picture - insert 3) to keep the water and dirt out.


C1 - A small amount of silicone will come in contact here. That would be the grease that you apply to the back of the pad to reduce squeal.
C2 - some of your silicone grease will contact here. That would be the grease that you apply to the outer edge of the pad F2 (see picture) to keep the water and dirt out.
C3 - nothing here.

Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:48:45 AM by Stoli »
My Project Threads:
Project #1 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=117106.0  First bike
Project #2 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127364.0  Something different
Project #3 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=123831.0  Long and Low

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Caliper restoration "what to put where", pictures and index
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 12:20:19 PM »
First, I must say I'm favorably impressed that such deep thought has been involved on a rebuild and that you are "detail oriented".   Nice pics and detail points, too!

Here are my comments.

Seriously consider retiring the depicted caliper.  The seal grove still has rather large and abundant corrosion pits, not conducive to sealing well or allowing the seal the operate well as a piston retraction "spring".  I would only reuse such a caliper body after the apocalypse when a replacement could not be obtained.  To get that surface flat and smooth again, would make the dimensions questionable for the standard square section seal.  So, unless a special dimension seal is employed, I think that caliper body is doomed.  imo

Quote
My question is, where does the silicone grease go and where does the "caliper assembly grease" go.
Referring to your labeled pictures, A2,B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, C3, and D1 but only on the side outside the seal interface.  I.e. NOT A1 or A1.5.
The rule is that the silicone is used only as a water barrier to deny water contact to bare exposed metal.  If air and water can get to exposed metal, it will corrode.  The silicone grease is not used because of it's lubrication qualities.  But, rather because it will not alter its material phase with heat and will not combine with water or other atmospheric contaminants, which can attack and convert the metals used with the caliper. In this design, the silicone lube is used in lieu of paint to protect the metal.

F2 and F1 should have a thin coating on any metal surface that does not have a paint barrier.

Quote
any silicone based grease with heat resistance up to 200+ would due  ?
No.  Beware of package labeling, and salesmen eager to sell you something at profit.  Advertisements of heat resistance can easily refer to its lubrication ability rather that it's phase state stability.  "Contains silicone" is not the same a being pure silicone.
A grease or gel may only retain its physical state within a narrow temperature band.  Get it too cold and it may solidify, get it too hot and it may liquify.  I've yet to find a petroleum based product that does not fail to maintain phase state within the required temperature extremes.   Worse, most of the petroleum products I've encountered, can't maintain 100% phase state even at room temperature, meaning they separate from the blended binders that make it a grease, rather than liquid oil, and then bleed or crawl along the surface away from the application point.  For this particular caliper design, this means the friction pad and rotor interface can become fouled with lube.  Even if the grease is labeled to remain an excellent lubricant to 500 degrees, it is not a comfort to me if applied to the very friction surface I need to stop the bike.

 
Quote
And any special do's and dont's regarding the "caliper assembly grease" ?
Assuming you mean "Brake assembly lube".  It goes in the groove (A1.5) and on the seal.  It is totally allowable to get a little onto A1 and the brake fluid end of D1, as it will simply dissolve into the brake fluid when it is introduced.  Some will also remain in the seal groove next to A2.  Some may even get onto A2.  That is OK, imo, as it is far enough away from the friction pads as there is little chance of contamination.  And, the assembly lube also has limited ability to keep water and air away from exposed metal contact (which keeps the seal grove from corroding).

Those are my recommendations.

But, I'm sure you'll get other responses, testimonials to the effect of "I used product XYZ and it works fine."

If you are determined to use substitute materials, make sure you do your own product testing for this specific application rather than simply rely on broad and/or nebulous package labeling.
I've tested some that failed requirements for this application.  (And some that didn't even meet package labeling statements.)

Hope this helps,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Caliper restoration "what to put where", pictures and index
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
Thanks for the answers this was exactly what I wanted.

Regarding the silicone grease, we have silicone grease that IF I use I will test in the oven as you suggested in another thread TwoTired and observe the changes in the grease's viscosity etc.

 

However Twotired, Im concerned about your comment on my caliper. I think and hopefully believe that the groves oxidization looks far worse then it is. I just felt both of my caliper groves and neither of them (the one on the pictures looks the worst) can I feel anything. So since i'm dead broke, only have this bike and the spring is coming up I will try and use the caliper. If it doesn't work Ill drive with one until I fixed a new caliper. But really thank you for you sharp eyes and knowledge.
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2